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采访对象:苏建光/Interviewed: Su Jian-guang

采访对象:苏建光,佛教徒,居士,

地点:广州

时间:20052

身(体) body 21

社会 society social 16

暴力 violence 17

非暴力 nonviolence 4

抵抗不抵抗 resist nonresistance 5

宗)教 religion 5

佛教 Buddhism 9

信(信教 believe 12

教育 education 13

还手 hit back 11

心轮mentality heart ring of heart 14

脉(脉轮)    veins 14

关系 matter relation 6

() wisdom intelligent 7

能量 energy 5

prostitute 5

kind 3

Tao principles 3

动手 fight 3

言论 speech 1

犯罪 crime 2

长辈 eldership 2

唯物主义 materialism 2

太平盛世 millenarianism 3

普渡众生 deliver all living creatures from torment 1

方便 convenience 2

精神 spirit 3

宗派 sects 3

密宗 Mi-Zong 3

Qi 1

苏:举例说:譬如在你小时候,你的长辈你,别人吐唾沫给你,你当没发生一样。这是一种教育,一种灌输,也是一种教育,现在你怎么教育小孩呢。 当别人向你吐唾沫的时候,你可能要还手,你是这样,是否其他人也这样呢?我估计大家都差不多。那整个社会的引导和教育会另到大家都会动手。如果你对我动手的话,我一定会对你动手,那么整个社会言论语境都鼓励支持暴力的。你觉得使用暴力很正当对不对,你的长辈就会这么你:别人打你,你一定要还手,那就是一种暴力教育。以前我们的教育是一种非暴力教育。你觉得这有没有关系呢?

徐:我觉得当然有关系了,就像宗教缺损,就像佛教包括印度。强调非暴力的勿抗的,哪怕暴力施加到你们上也是不抵抗的,是吧?它是非暴力的一种

苏:现在我们不能小孩说,别人在街上吐你,你当没发生一样。 因为在以前的社会,你这么做,你是美德,那如果在现在的社会你这么做,你在犯罪,你在纵容别人。当别人吐你,你当没发生一样的时候,他可以把手伸到你的口袋里,把你任何的东西都掏光了,犯罪会加深,对不对?只不过现在的表现形式不一样了,到更具备智慧消化这个事情,比如你提到的这个暴力,需要你更具备智慧,需要你更超越

徐:但是中国几十年从五四运动以后或者说是鸦片战争以后,中国社会就抛弃这种观念。觉得你不抵抗你就得倒霉,实际上就是这样的。

苏:我觉得无论抵抗不抵抗都有个的概念,你有没有整体的指导原则。如果你是个整体的指导原则,我如果是个暴力指导原则的人的话,我可以把暴力做得很高明的。我可以用不使用的暴力的手法对你实施暴力。如果我是个以非暴力作为精神的指导原则的人的话,我可以通过暴力转化暴力,不是以暴夷暴,我可以做到你打我还手,我可以因为你需要教育、转化而使用还手,这是为了精神性,为了而服务的。现在很多人只知你打我我要还手,而不知还手的背后有个动机指导性原则,我为什么要还手,为什么不还手,当你明确了这个动机以后,你还手还是不还手,都被你这个行为动机都被你的指导思想覆盖

徐:以轮回的观念来说:比如说上一世很豪华的一个人,下一世有可能会沦落为别的什么,在过去的社会里,这种观念其实就是这个社会一种价值,适当地安抚了那些失落的人,安抚了那些在社会竞争力中处于劣势的人们, 而在我们这个社会这种观念被批判了。

苏:如果你用这种方式和我沟通,那我和你有个根本不同点,这是长限的问题你的表述是用一种所谓的唯物世界观指导,即,人只有这一辈子。而我的观点不是这一世时空关系。因为我们还必须面对一个问题,比如和刚才你所讲的和暴力的这种关系。比如,这个时代善有善报恶有恶报的话。如果这种观点支持我们的话,我们需要看到有一个结果。譬如好人应有好报,但我们看到,在这个世上好人基本上没有好报,而坏人使用暴力的人使用掠夺的人,他们往往成为强势,那么就会动摇我们的观念。那么,这都是建立上一世的唯物主义观点上的。但有一个情况,如果像我们这种指导原则,如果说有前有后,通过这个指导原则, 你就会发现,在这个时空关系里,是个怎么样的社会氛围。如果,现在是个乱世,大家都使用暴力。大家都掠夺。

徐:所以我还是很乐意退回到价值系统的空缺上。你刚才说得很准确,在这个一世的,唯物主义社会系统里,谁都不再相,就像好人都有得到好报的这样的话。你只有一世,所以该出手时就出手。如果你不出手的话你这一世就妄活了,或者说你就永远妄活了。所以我认为这是很重要的理由。

苏:我们的社会根源在这,你在受这种仰的教育

徐:没有人教育他,他就变成这样的。

苏:你从小受到社会环境教育。整个社会有个过程的演变。大家都要受到这种教育,人是种受   编码的动物。教育其实是对你大脑程序进行编码。而你又按照这样去做了,一种适合这个太平盛世的生存的规则,或者说思想指导系统。当在乱世的时候,用太平盛世的这套游戏规则就不适合,会产生冲突。为什么现在你会觉得有危机感呢?因为现在指导我们的意识形态是冲突的意识形态。而现在的整个系统指导你或人们往冲突,往沉沦上带。但现在这个社会的基础是个太平盛世的基础。就是说物质的东西已经构建得比较完备了,而那种思想指导系统还是乱世、战斗的或者无序的系统。那么你面临的这个危机,如果你引导得不好,那整个社会,整个建设好的东西会崩溃。

苏:譬如有个理念要普渡众生,成就我们做为普遍个体的存在,在基础上提升我们,佛教是一个智慧宗教,它也提到一个方便概念,因势利导叫方便法门。利用你刚才所提到的这里东 西。我们不见得要和这个世界的运作方式抗衡,我们可以像太极拳那样四两拨千斤。如果以这样的指导思想为前提的话,就不存在你对身体怎样去认识,在这个认识的基础上去调整我们自己得到提升,得到超越。我有时感到智慧水平很高的信佛的知识份子,他们对待身体的需要和欲望采取一种所谓的不执着,在一瞬间获得另外一种感悟的,如他不排斥色情等。传统上有不是家历史但可以拿来说明的例子。历史上宋明理学里有二陈,陈浩、陈意两兄弟都是理学大家,是宋明理学的代表人物。一次在酒席当中,别人请来了一个兴,当哥还是当弟的就愤然离去,另外一个就当没事发生一样。第二天愤然离去那个就质问他为何可以这样?他回答,昨晚我是目中有妓心中无。而你今天质问我,你是目中无中有。于是另一个中就转过来了,觉得自己境界不如他兄弟。在佛教密宗里面,特别是西藏密宗里面描述得很精细,它讲到不光是我们这个肉。它讲到我们还有一个微细的在,跟我们身体最有关的是我们的中,左右,还有脉轮。用现在的话来讲就是些生理中,像中医所讲对身体的看法,由各种筋组成,而这种筋又不是解剖学意义上的器官或者通。它是一种能量,由各种脉能量组成。中、左右、然后是顶轮、然后是眉尖喉轮、心轮,这是能量。中和百的缠绕就是所谓的脉轮。认为你一旦中贯通,一旦脉轮被开启的话人身体的潜能就被极大地开发。人的智慧被极大地开发。譬如你打开顶轮就能如庄子所说的天地精神相往来。你能启动你生命的最根本能量心轮能打开的话,就如禅宗所讲:明见性,明就是心轮被打开了,你就能进放到所谓的空性.进入到宇宙和人整个一体性。这是家对身体的一个描述。我们这个肉身身体不是一个最精妙所在。它描述是更深层次,非生理学非解剖学意义上的这个身体.叫细,或密宗说的最细的由能量流由组成的这个身体。其实它是把心智身体看成一体的,

徐:任何对身体的改变开发和闭塞都会带来心智上的变化。

苏:同样你性上的开启的话也会影响到你身体的状况。因为有不同的宗派,它所使用的道物不一样。有些对身体是个否定态度,有些宗派身体是中性的态度。它不见得否定也不见得肯定你的身体,但有些宗派它可以对身体使用肯定的态度。

苏:这么多年用一个信教的形容我是不恰当的。我是从来都不的,我认为我是个佛教徒。这么多年我是用探寻的方式去信教,这么多年我都在看,但我没有相它、探寻它、求证它、看它。现在我总结了一下我自己假设一个人要和我探讨宗教的话,这就是一个探寻的过程,而不是一个相的过程。西方系统是要你去相一个东西,包括宗教里面往往都使用暴力让你信教,让你首先接受这个东西。我认为这就是使用暴力,而我这个人恰恰是属于,即使你对我使用暴力也是无效的,

徐:你刚才说的是一个非常重要的一个说法。就是你信教的过程是一个探寻的过程,而不是  一个相的过程。

苏:反而是一个怀疑过程,有怀疑才有探寻,才有动力去做,才会看这么多的资料去参学,去比较,去用你的眼睛去看。

 

Interviewed: Su Jian-guang, Buddhist

Time: February 2005

Location: Guangzhou

 

身(体) body 21

社会 society social 16

暴力 violence 17

非暴力 nonviolence 4

抵抗不抵抗 resist nonresistance 5

宗)教 religion 5

佛教 Buddhism 9

信(信教 believe 12

教育 education 13

还手 hit back 11

心轮mentality heart ring of heart 14

脉(脉轮)    veins 14

关系 matter relation 6

() wisdom intelligent 7

能量 energy 5

 

prostitute 5

 

kind 3

Tao principles 3

动手 fight 3

言论 speech 1

犯罪 crime 2

长辈 eldership 2

唯物主义 materialism 2

太平盛世 millenarianism 3

普渡众生 deliver all living creatures from torment 1

方便 convenience 2

精神 spirit 3

宗派 sects 3

密宗 Mi-Zong 3

Qi 1

 

 

Su: for example, when you were a little boy, your eldership told you not to care about it when someone spitting at you. This is a way of education, a way of infusion, as well as an education of kindness. How do you educate your children? When someone spits at you, you are likely to do something in return. You react like this. And how about others? I suppose that almost everyone would choose to do something in return. Then the whole society is leading and teaching the people to fight each other. If you hit me, I will certainly hit you back. So the whole social speech and circumstance will tend to encourage or support violence. You think violence is not that bad, isn’t it? Because you are told by your eldership that you should hit it back whenever you are hit. This is an education of violence. But in the past we received an education of nonviolence. Don’t you think it matters very much?

 

Xu: of course I do think it matters. Just like the lack of religion. Like Buddhism and Hinduism, they stress on nonviolence and nonresistance. You would not resist even you are violated. This is nonviolence state of mind.

 

Su: Now we can’t tell our children that you should not care about it when someone spitting at you on the street. This is because in the past, it was regarded as virtue if you did so. Living in today’s society, you commit a crime if you agree to do so. If you don’t care about someone else spitting at you, it is your connivance. He may put his hand in your pocket, take anything away, Don’t you think he has committed a bigger crime? He only difference is nowadays we use different ways. We should have wisdom to cope with it. For example, you mentioned violence just now. You are required to be more sapiential and more transcendent.

 

Xu: But after the May fourth Movement or even after the opium War, we Chinese, for decades, have put away this conception, thinking that you don’t resist you will be down on your luck. Actually it is.

 

Su: I think whether you resist or not resist are something concerning the concept of both “Dao” (principles, Tao) and “Shu” (methods).If I am under the guidance of violence, I may brilliantly use violence, and bring it into effect by ways of nonviolence. If I am under the guidance of nonviolence, I may transform violence by means of violence. It’s not violence for violence. It means I would fight back if you hit me. I may do something in return because you need to be educated and transformed. This is for the sakes of the spirituality and “Dao” (principles, Tao). Many people simply know that I must hit back if being hit by others. But they don’t know that behind it there exists a motive and a principle. Why should I hit it back and why shouldn’t I? As you nail down your motive, your decision to hit or not will certainly be guided by your motive and your principle.

 

Xu: According to the idea of samsara in Buddhism, a person might live a very luxurious life in his preexistence, and is likely to be reduced to poverty afterworld. This idea, as a matter of fact, was regarded in the past time as a value widely accepted by the society, which moderately conciliated those losing people. The idea to conciliate those who strive to get rid of their inferiority is being criticized in our society.

 

Su: if you tend to communicate with me in this way, I should say that the basic difference between you and me is the problem of time limitation. What you said just now is guided by the world view of materialism, that is to say, a person can only live three score years and ten. I don’t think that we should be limited to one-life time and space, because we have to face one question. For example, just now you talked about the relationship between man and violence. Another example, you said that in our time, good is rewarded with good , and evil with evil.If we want to find support for this view, we need to see a result.For instance, a good person should be regarded with good. However, what we see is good men in this world, generally speaking, can not be regarded with good, while those evil men who use violence could always be dominant. So it will wave our conception.All these are built on the view of materialism which believes a person can only live one life.But one thing I should mention here, if this principle of guidance,I mean, if we admit that there exist the so called preexistence and the after world, under the guidance of this principle, you may find how the social atmosphere is within this time and space.

 

Xu: In this case, I would like to go back to the absence of value systems.What you said just now is very correct. In a social system that materialism is widely accepted, nobody believesthat good men could rewarded with good.You’ve got only one life to live, so whenever you want to do something, just go for it If you fail to do so, you will have wasted all your life.Therefore, I think this is very important reason.

 

Su: Here lays the cause of the society. You are influenced by this belief.

 

Xu: He becomes a man like this without any education.

 

Su: You are educated by the social circumstances in your childhood. The whole society develops gradually. Everyone can not avoid this education. Our human beings are coded animals. Education, as a matter of fact, is to program your brain. And you just do things according to it. In troubled times it is not suitable to follow the games rule of the millenarianism, because it will produce conflict. Why do you think now that you’ve got a sense of crisis? because our leading ideology is a conflicting one.Today the whole system is leading people to collision and depravity. But the foundation of this society is that of millenarianism. That is to say, the construction of substances has been greatly improved.The ideological system of the society remains troubling, fighting and out of order.

Then facing to this crisis, if people are not well guided, the whole society as well as those that have been built up will collapse.

 

Su: For instance, there has an idea in Buddhism which believes in delivering all living creatures from torment. It accomplishes our existence as universal individuality, and upgrades us on the base.As an intelligent religion, Buddhism also mentions the concept of convenience. The way of convenience is to adroitly guide action according to circumstances. To take advantage of what you mentioned just now, We don’t have to fight against the operational ways in this world. We can get twice the result with half the effort just like playing Taiji.If led by this thought it will be useless talking about how to understand the body.On the basis of this cognition we can adjust ourselves so as to make an advancement and transcendency. Sometimes I think intellectuals, who are also very intelligent Buddhists, take a very flexible way to treat their desire for the body, so as to get another kind of understanding at the certain moment. For instance, they don’t exclude eroticism. In Chinese history there were examples that might be used to prove it. During Song Dynasty, there were two brothers, Chenhao and Chenyi who were regarded as masters of Neo-Confucianism.One day , the two were present on a banquet and a prostitute was called to add.Seeing this, one left angrily, but the other seemed as if nothing had happened.The next day when the one who had left asked the other how he could have done so, “Yesterday evening I just followed the prostitute with my eyes, but didn’t keep my mind on her,” replied the one who were questioned by the one who had left angrily. “And now you are questioning me, this proves you keep your mind on the prostitute, though you consider her beneath your notice.”Hearing this, he realized that he couldn’t reach the realm of thought as the other.In Buddhism the Mi-Zong sect, especially the sect in Tibet, gives a very detailed description of our human being’s body.Besides the body, we still have other tiny one.What relate most to our body are the cardinal veins, the vein on the left the vein on the right, and the ring of veins.Actually they are now called physiological centre.According to traditional Chinese medicine, man’s body consists of all kinds of muscles and veins. It is not an organ or an alleyway in anatomy.It is an alleyway of energy, consists of variety of vein energies. Cardinal vein, veins on the left and on the right, then the ring of top, the ring of glabella, the ring of heart, these are energetic centre.Interweaving cardinal vein with other veins is what we call ring of vein.It is said that once the cardinal vein is run through and the ring of vein is turned on, the potentiality of man’s body as well as his wisdom will be greatly opened up. For example, if you can open your top ring, you will be able to communicate with the spirit of whole universe. You can start up the most essential energies in your life. When the ring of heart is opened up, you will be able to see clearly the nature of this world, as a Zenist believes, and totally syncretising with the universality as a whole. This is a description of the body. According to Buddhism, man’s body is not the most beautiful one. At a higher level, there exists another body called small and tiny body, which is not in relation to anatomical physiology. Or, according to the Mi-Zong sect, the smallest body is constituted by Qi, veins and the move of energy.Actually it sees both the body and mentality as a whole.

 

Xu: Any change, opening –up and blocking up of the body will bring changes to mentality.

 

Su:If your mentality is opened up, the state of your body will certainly be affected. Because different sects use different means to express their ideas. Some of them have a negative attitude toward the body, some have moderate attitude, not affirming nor denying the body. However, there are sects that have an affirmative attitude toward the body.

 

Su: it is out of the way to say that for years I have only been a religion believer. I have never been so. Yes, I think I am a Buddhist. For years I have been exploring it. I perceive, but I don’t believe, I try to explore it, prove it instead.Generally speaking, if anyone who wants to talk about religion with me, I would like to say it is a course of exploration, not a course of believing.In Western system, you are called to believe something, including religion. You are always forced to believe in it, to accept it first.

I think it is a kind of violence. I am simply a person who would not accept it even you do violence to me.

 

Xu: What you said just now is very important. The course of believing a religion is a course of exploration instead of believing.

 

Su: On the contrary, it is a course of disbelieving. With doubt we are driven to explore it, to collect so many materials in order to make a better understanding of it, to compare it, and to see it with your own eyes.

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