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采访对象:野牛/Interviewed:Ye-niu

*Video:野牛01

*Video:野牛02

*Video:野牛03

采访对象:野牛,地下及枪手作家(无出版署名劝,为他人代笔写作)

Interviewed: Ye-niu (mossback): an underground writer, and a writer who write for other persons without own signature.

时间:Time: January, 2007

地点:Location: Guangzhou

中国 China Chinese 24

社会 social society 19

生存 living live 10

生活 life 11

财富 wealth 8

知识分子 intellectuals 7

利益 benefit 7

身体 body 6

文化 culture 6

改革(开放) reform opening 5

知识 knowledge 4

制度 system 4

政治 political politic 5

矛盾 contradiction 4

直接 directly 4

自由 free freedom 5

妓女 prostitute 4

六四 June 4th 2

人权 human rights 2

卖淫 sell oneself 2

党禁 prohibition of parties 2

性服务 erotic service sexual service 2

器官服务 deal with one’s organ 1

性交易 make sexual intercourse 1

扫黄 anti-eroticism campaign 1

意识形态 ideology 1

市场(化) market 3

消费 consume 3

资本主义 capitalism 3

社会主义 socialist 2

传统 tradition 2

野牛:我们曾谈到这个问题,就是目前国情下知识分子启蒙已经没有了,已经没有太大的意义了。就是民间直接生存矛盾已经非常激烈了。像那个工人下岗,待业青年,包括大学生毕业面临综合性的失业。那么生存的第一性要求引出很多社会问题。远远超出我们所说的知识启蒙.比如一个妓女她有什么呢,没有什么,就好像扫黄中,她连买淫的权利也没有.一方面你不给她吃,她必须从农村山区跑出来,跑到城市来。你说她可以凭什么生存呢?她除了青春和身体,什么也没有.中国目前的这个社会问题,在改革开放中,财富私有化过程中出现的不公平。本来在去几十年的政治斗争中,它们财富创造是有限的。在快速的财富分割中不公平。那只有少数人能获得巨大利益。大多数民众没有获得利益。那种直接生存威胁感,和生存利益失落感,不需要谁教育,也就能明白。所以大量农民要造反游行抗议暴动。社会底层的矛盾已经非常尖锐,直接生存对抗,不像改革开放初期,包括六四时,生存矛盾还较小,社会财富两极分化较小,知识份子认为知识成一种公共性质的一种普及性质价值观,作为一种社会理想,普通老百姓不知道,只有一种呼吁,一种从政治改革,和从尊重人权角度,还有些意义。当年江泽民还提出维护所谓的生存权,你说那些打工的来广东,他连都没得吃,他连卖淫都不允可的时候,他还能这个社会吗?还能这个制度吗?不可能。这就让中国知识份子存在于一个很尴尬的社会地位,生活已经超越他们这些做为社会的进步力量了。

你刚才说这个社会已经很自由了,那么从党禁和新闻自由来看还非常有限。和文革比较,只是你现在能说了,但只是私人性的,你不能进入交流渠道,不能进入媒体渠道。身体是每个人的私有财产。在社会主义计划经济下,你什么也没有,有的只有你的身体。但这个身体也有很多限制不属于你的,你不能提供性服务,你什么都不能。因为违背道德,违背我们的治安条例。但改革开放以后,大量的西方文化的融入,对中国人的影响很大,再者是财富的快速分化,有财富的阶级他们的生活就自然打开,打开的标准之一,就是他婚姻之外有需要,外面可以有妓女情妇二奶。也就是说,他有能力有资格享受这种多元性的生活。他有这个需求,但作为那些到广东的打工妹,他们有什么呢?什么都没有。但为了活命,总该有点什么,要么有知识,要么有体力,什么都没有怎么活命?最终发现她有身体,她可以提供器官服务。在一方有要求,一方可以出售情况下,加上这旧社会已经有的这种生活,现在又被恢复了,全世界的人都在这么,为什么中国人不能这么呢?所以关于现在的中国,我认为你谈得很文雅,我认为70年代出生的这些20多岁的人已经不是这种看法。我们和几个中年女知识分子,著名女作家争论的时候,她们还在扭捏作态,而我说,你看这些十八十九的年轻人直接器官做交易了,你还在遮遮藏藏作甚么,谁会去找你呢。我认为和我们的文化传统关系很大,我们这个道德和伪道德的传统是很有害的。每个人都愿意男盗女娼,从自我出发,谁都是这样的。如果许可他男盗女娼,他一定男盗女娼。当面对别人的时候,当面对是第三者的时候,哪怕一个很开明知识份子,他都会用很尖刻的语言嘲笑你。譬如一个人他嫖妓,吃喝嫖赌他都来的。但他说别人的时候,他总会用很尖刻的语言,其实他比这个人还烂,我认为这是中国文化一个可悲的地方。

徐坦: 那你觉得这仅仅只是中国传统的问题了?跟共产主义运动没关系了?

野牛: 没关系,我认为共产主义意识形态强化了它。

徐坦: 我认为有关系吧, 比如60-70年代的党报元旦社论,就会谈到我们中国是全世界唯一一个没有妓女的国家。这是否跟共产主义原则有关系,否则这有什么好宣传的?

野牛:我认为生命是属于自己的,每个人都应为自己的生命负责负责也包含了他可以自由使用自己的身体伦理道德没有权力干涉。一个人为了生存性交易。像广州许多酒巴,很多中年男人和年轻女子,他们就是快速消费,你陪我喝茶,我买单,然后给小费。我认为这种交换是正当的,那些从农村来的女孩,知识文化都没有,她能给别人什么呢?她只能给别人抚摸肉体。 而那些中年男子他们有剩的财富,在那没有新鲜感的婚姻之外找另外的一种刺激。我认为是正当的,而它对社会带来的危害言之实,夸大了。搞专业的知识份子玩的那点小东西跟政治没有关系,经济利益没有关系,甚至跟老百姓

的观念也没有异议。譬如老百姓提出一个问题:当我只是一个打工的,我什么都没有的时候,我可不可以用我的器官来和你作交易。如果表达这样一种主题的,很多打工妹的都愿意看。因为他们都面临这个问题:我什么都没有,给你亲一下,你给我10块钱。一个人为了生存可以投降当叛徒的话,你在她的奶头上下有什么大不了的呢?况且首先你得先着,在自然界,为了活命任何伪装都可以做的出来的。

徐坦:而且我认为妓女不是一个肮脏的职业。因为我在8年前在上海和上海的一个艺术家争论这个问题。我并不会尊重某个国家总统超一个妓女。因为这个职业是干净,是单纯的。但作为某些总统,他只是一个政客。但我没说中国的总统怎样,因为都不在你的话题之内。

野牛:因为从社会需要的角度看,如果没有性服务工作者的话,大量的弱势阶层、老人,他们的性生活得不到满足,我们看到的更多是有钱的消费阶层为比消费。我们心里感到不平衡。譬如说一个瞎子没机会做,在毛泽东时代大量光棍没看到一个女人。中国的统治者为了所谓的社会稳定,他把他的权利看的太高太重要了,把他的己得利益太重要了,因此他给人民一点自由也没有。他有十个女人他也不会让你一个。

可以说六四以后中国智识阶层就所有文明开明方面的语词都使用尽了。中国政治体制上的笵式和理念可以说也很完备了。我认为关键在于,利益上他们,既得利益者不愿意真正把利益放给社会,放给人民。而不是没有观念,没有一种理想,没有一种可运用性的体制之类的东西,很多方案。像人大、政协,还有比较开明的,比较追求社会进步的知识份子提出了很多运用性很强的制度性东西。但实际上不能实施,就算拟了法也不能实施。我觉得中国还是个很的国家,财富有限,人们对风险这种概念也有限,我们有很多制度盲点,至少是制度理想盲点。大家知道应该怎么做,知道什么是天下为公,但很多人不敢那样去做,不愿那样去做. 我认为症结在这里。外国人看到中国变化,和中国人自己感到的变化,我想是有很大区别的。中国历来都崇洋媚外共产党批判洋奴哲学,大家对外国人有种看法,外国人在中国享受很多,譬如说社会待遇啊、人权上的认可啊、对他们的服务是很周到的。中国人自己感到一定两样的。另外我认为吸引外国人来中国是因为中国廉价肉体中国有大量人口人口是一种资源。一个老外中国就是认识几个中国女孩或妓女。作为一个普通观光者,别的东西,中国文化对他没太大的意义,而中国这个几千年文明的东方大国,她有很多东西可以看,有很多文化遗迹。另外我认为人种是一种资源。这样一些东方瓷娃娃对西方人正是有很大吸引。而不是我们的改革政策对他们的吸引。我们这些东西在他们面前没什么值得炫耀的,就是些泊来品。另外就是中国这个市场,它对那些大资本集团公司还是有吸引力,对后二十年的市场战略性投资,我认为它有它的道理。但你说的,中国现在社会莺歌燕舞?那倒未必。现有个非常矛盾的地方,就是生活已经前进了。譬如广州,我认为广州城市建设水准非常高了,就广州这个城市市场化程度很高了,它已经全球化了。它和资本主义国家的工业文明和后工业文明,没有太大区别。甚至在有些方面,因为“社会主义特色”有之而无不及。我记得96年有个资料显示,海口的妓女了日本。当然按百分比来计算的话,那还有问题,如果我们用其他的衡量标准看,比如说党禁这个角度,一个政党和社团不能自由形成,这个社会资本主义有很大区别。言论出版都受到限制一个社会,肯定不能用资本主义的概念来衡量。

 

Interviewed: Ye-niu (mossback): an underground writer, and a writer who write for other persons without own signature.

Time: January, 2007

Location: Guangzhou

中国 China Chinese 24

社会 social society 19

生存 living live 10

生活 life 11

财富 wealth 8

知识分子 intellectuals 7

利益 benefit 7

身体 body 6

文化 culture 6

改革(开放) reform opening 5

知识 knowledge 4

制度 system 4

政治 political politic 5

矛盾 contradiction 4

直接 directly 4

 

自由 free freedom 5

妓女 prostitute 4

六四 June 4th 2

人权 human rights 2

卖淫 sell oneself 2

党禁 prohibition of parties 2

性服务 erotic service sexual service 2

器官服务 deal with one’s organ 1

性交易 make sexual intercourse 1

扫黄 anti-eroticism campaign 1

意识形态 ideology 1

 

市场(化) market 3

消费 consume 3

资本主义 capitalism 3

社会主义 socialist 2

传统 tradition 2

 

 

Ye-niu: Once we talked about this problem, that is, under the present circumstances, our intellectuals are no longer affectionate towards the others. It is to say, ordinary Chinese people have to face directly to the furious problem of living. For example, those laid-off workers, unemployed young people, including university students who can not find job after their graduation. The demand for living will arouse a lot of social problems. It goes beyond the so-called intellectual enlightenment. Take a prostitute for example, she has nothing, even has no right to sell herself during the anti-eroticism campaign. If she doesn’t want to put up with starvation, she will have to come to the city from the countryside or mountain area. Otherwise, she  won’t be able to go on living. She has nothing except youth and body. Presently the social problem in China is the unfairness appeared during the course of privatization in opening to the outside world. For decades, people could have created limited properties in political struggle. During the quick and unfair distribution of fortune, only a small number of people can accumulate a huge amount wealth, but most people can not. This menace directly to life, as well as a sense of losing in life, could be understood by everyone without being educated. So many peasants rise in rebellion, holding a protest march, and raising an insurrection. Contradiction at the bottom of the society has become very sharp. Different from the early period of reform and opening to the outside world, including the June 4th, The contradiction for existence was till moderate, the social wealth was also not sharply divided. Intellectuals considered knowledge as a public view of value. As a social ideal, ordinary people didn’t know it. It was only an appeal which was of some meaning if it was viewed from the angle of political reform or from the respect for human rights. Jiang Ze-min once urged us to defend the right of existence. Look at those girls who come to do manual work in Guangdong. If they can’t support themselves with the money earned, even they are not allowed to be a prostitute, how can they love this society? How can they love this system? It’s impossible. This has put Chinese intellectuals at a very embarrassed social status. Life has already gone beyond their efforts to push the society forward. Just mow you said we are living in a society that is quite free. As far as the prohibition of parties and freedom of press are concerned, it is still highly limited. Comparing with the Cultural Revolution, the only difference is now you can say what you want to say, but it is confined to private talks. You are not allowed to communicate in public media. Everyone owns his private property—-the body. In socialist planned economy, you’ve got nothing but your own body. However your body doesn’t belong to you. You are not allowed to provide erotic service, because you run counter to morality, and violate the regulation for public security. After China’s economic reform and opening to the outside world, Chinese people have greatly influenced by the widely imported Western cultures.

Besides, with the fast division of social wealth, life of the rich has naturally changed. One of the standards marking the change is that he could have lovers and prostitutes outside his marriage. That is to say, he has the ability to enjoy this diversified life. He has a demand for this. As for the girls coming to Guangdong to do manual work, what do they have? Nothing. But in order to live, she should have something. knowledge or physical force, how could she live if she has nothing? Finally she realizes that she owns her body, and she could provide service with her body. With demand on one side and will for sale on the other, The life of the old days has recovered. People in all over the world live a life like this, why shouldn’t we Chinese? So I think you’ve made a very refined talk about contemporary China. I think people born in 1970s, around the age of 20, will not hold this view. Once I was arguing with several middle-aged woman intellectuals and well-known woman writers, They were affectedly shy.I told them that girls at the age of 18 or 19 would directly make deal with their organs. But you are trying to cover them up. Who cares about you? I think this moral concept is extremely harmful, which is much concerned with our culture tradition. Everyone would like to behave like thieves and whores. If he is allowed, he would certainly do it. When facing to others, especially to a third person, even an enlightened intellectual. He would laugh at you in bitingly words. For example, a whorehouse frequenter, wining and dining and whoring and gambling. When he talks about someone else, he would always use biting words. In fact, he is even more rotten. This is really lamentable for Chinese culture, I think.

 

Xu Tan: you mean it’s simply a problem of Chinese tradition, which has no connection with the communist movement?

 

Ye-niu: Yes. I think it is the communist ideology that strengthens it.

 

Xu Tan: I don’t agree with you. In 1960 and 1970s, we could read editorials on the New Year’s Day, from which we knew that China was the only country in all over the world where you could not find a single prostitute. Does that relate to communist principle? Otherwise, what is the use of such kind of propaganda?

 

Ye-niu: I think life belongs to myself. Everyone is responsible for his own life. This includes that he can freely use his own body without being interfered by ethic and morality. One can make sexual intercourse with others just for existence. Like many middle-aged men found in pubs in Guangzhou, they stay with those young girls who are paid for accompanying them to drink or enjoy themselves. I don’t think this deal is unfair. For an illiterate girl coming from the countryside, what can she give to others except her body? As for a middle-aged man who is really rich enough, it is nothing unusual I think to look for stimulus outside his dull marriage. People, in fact, exaggerates its harmfulness to the society. What professional intellectuals do have nothing to do with politics, economic benefits, even have nothing to do with ordinary people’s ideas. For example, ordinary people would like to ask this question: If I am only a manual worker, and I’ve got nothing, may I use my organ to make a deal with you? If this subject is expressed, it would be welcomed by those woman manual workers, because they always have to face this problem: I’ve got nothing. If you pay me 10 yuan, I would like you kiss me for a while. If one can choose to be a traitor for existence, it’s nothing serious for you to be touched by others on your breasts. Whatever to say, you should first and for most be alive. In nature, you can do everything to disguise yourself in order to live.

 

Xu Tan: to speak further, I don’t think it’s dirty to be a whore. When I was in Shanghai 8 years ago, I argued with an artist of Shanghai about this problem. I don’t want to show more my respect to the president of a certain country than a whore, because I think this profession is pure and clear. As a president, he is only a politician. I didn’t mean the Chinese president, for it’s beyond your topic.

 

Ye-niu: from the view of social demand, a great number of inferior people including old people can not have a satisfactory sexual life if there is no one who would like to provide sexual service. We see more and more rich men spend money just for display.

 

It is said that since the June 4th, all words and expressions concerning civilization and enlightenment have been exhausted by Chinese intellectuals. They have also greatly improved the form and idea in building up Chinese political system.. However, I think, the point is, as far as benefit is concerned, vested interests would not really want to distribute their vested interest to the society as well as the people. Though we have concepts, ideals and something like system available. Progressive intellectuals have put forward in NPC and CPPCC a lot of useful projects related to the building of the system. But nothing can actually be carried into practice, even it is issued by the law. I think China, with limited fortune, is still very poor. People know little about the idea of venture. Besides, in our system there exist quite a lot blind spots, at least it is so for an ideal system. Everyone knows what he or she should to do, they understand that the whole world is one community. But many people dare not to do like that. They are unwilling to do so. This is, I think, where the point is. Foreigners have seen the changes in China, and we too. However we both have quite different views to the change. We Chinese always worship foreign things and toady to foreign powers. So the Chinese communist party criticizes the slavish comprador philosophy. Every one is critical of the foreigners. Foreigners in China can lead a life of pleasure. They can enjoy better treatment in society, recognition of human rights, as well as attentive and satisfactory services. For Chinese themselves they must be treated quite differently. Apart from this, what attracts foreigners to come is just because of the cheap bodies in China. As you know, China is a country with a treat amount of population. It is another kind of resources. When a foreigner comes to China, what he wants to do is to get acquaintance with several Chinese girls or prostitutes. As an ordinary foreign tourist, nothing, including Chinese culture, has to do with him, though China is a great oriental country with a civilization of thousands years where he can see a lot of things as well as many historical relics. Human race is another kind of resource which is really attractive to Western people. For them the most attractive thing is not reform policy, but those Chinese dolls of china. What we have now are imported from them, nothing is worth playing the peacock before them. Another thing is the Chinese market, which is more or less attractive to those big companies in the world to come to make a strategic investment in the coming twenty years. This I think is somewhat reasonable.

 

I don’t agree with you that every where in China today is a scene of prosperity. Yes, we have already improved our lives. In Guangzhou, you can find a very high level of urban construction. The city, highly marketed, and closely related to the world, looks almost the same as those industrial and post-industrial capitalist countries, and goes in some respects even farther than the countries because of our socialist characteristics. According to a statistics in 1996, there were more prostitutes in Haikou than that in Japan. In terms of percentage, it still has problems, of course. If we use another standard to make judgment, for example, the prohibition of parties, This social system is quite different from capitalist system, for a party even a society can not be freely formed. A system in which freedom of speech and publication are limited can certainly not be assessed by the concept of capitalism.

 

 

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