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采访对象:纽约/Interviewed: K,NY

*Video:紐約01

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*Video:紐約03

采访对象:张江-农民/Interviewed: ZhangJiang-NongMin

*Video:張江01

徐坦

*Video:徐坦01

*Video:徐坦02

*Video:徐坦03

采访对象:野牛/Interviewed:Ye-niu

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*Video:野牛02

*Video:野牛03

采访对象:野牛,地下及枪手作家(无出版署名劝,为他人代笔写作)

Interviewed: Ye-niu (mossback): an underground writer, and a writer who write for other persons without own signature.

时间:Time: January, 2007

地点:Location: Guangzhou

中国 China Chinese 24

社会 social society 19

生存 living live 10

生活 life 11

财富 wealth 8

知识分子 intellectuals 7

利益 benefit 7

身体 body 6

文化 culture 6

改革(开放) reform opening 5

知识 knowledge 4

制度 system 4

政治 political politic 5

矛盾 contradiction 4

直接 directly 4

自由 free freedom 5

妓女 prostitute 4

六四 June 4th 2

人权 human rights 2

卖淫 sell oneself 2

党禁 prohibition of parties 2

性服务 erotic service sexual service 2

器官服务 deal with one’s organ 1

性交易 make sexual intercourse 1

扫黄 anti-eroticism campaign 1

意识形态 ideology 1

市场(化) market 3

消费 consume 3

资本主义 capitalism 3

社会主义 socialist 2

传统 tradition 2

野牛:我们曾谈到这个问题,就是目前国情下知识分子启蒙已经没有了,已经没有太大的意义了。就是民间直接生存矛盾已经非常激烈了。像那个工人下岗,待业青年,包括大学生毕业面临综合性的失业。那么生存的第一性要求引出很多社会问题。远远超出我们所说的知识启蒙.比如一个妓女她有什么呢,没有什么,就好像扫黄中,她连买淫的权利也没有.一方面你不给她吃,她必须从农村山区跑出来,跑到城市来。你说她可以凭什么生存呢?她除了青春和身体,什么也没有.中国目前的这个社会问题,在改革开放中,财富私有化过程中出现的不公平。本来在去几十年的政治斗争中,它们财富创造是有限的。在快速的财富分割中不公平。那只有少数人能获得巨大利益。大多数民众没有获得利益。那种直接生存威胁感,和生存利益失落感,不需要谁教育,也就能明白。所以大量农民要造反游行抗议暴动。社会底层的矛盾已经非常尖锐,直接生存对抗,不像改革开放初期,包括六四时,生存矛盾还较小,社会财富两极分化较小,知识份子认为知识成一种公共性质的一种普及性质价值观,作为一种社会理想,普通老百姓不知道,只有一种呼吁,一种从政治改革,和从尊重人权角度,还有些意义。当年江泽民还提出维护所谓的生存权,你说那些打工的来广东,他连都没得吃,他连卖淫都不允可的时候,他还能这个社会吗?还能这个制度吗?不可能。这就让中国知识份子存在于一个很尴尬的社会地位,生活已经超越他们这些做为社会的进步力量了。

你刚才说这个社会已经很自由了,那么从党禁和新闻自由来看还非常有限。和文革比较,只是你现在能说了,但只是私人性的,你不能进入交流渠道,不能进入媒体渠道。身体是每个人的私有财产。在社会主义计划经济下,你什么也没有,有的只有你的身体。但这个身体也有很多限制不属于你的,你不能提供性服务,你什么都不能。因为违背道德,违背我们的治安条例。但改革开放以后,大量的西方文化的融入,对中国人的影响很大,再者是财富的快速分化,有财富的阶级他们的生活就自然打开,打开的标准之一,就是他婚姻之外有需要,外面可以有妓女情妇二奶。也就是说,他有能力有资格享受这种多元性的生活。他有这个需求,但作为那些到广东的打工妹,他们有什么呢?什么都没有。但为了活命,总该有点什么,要么有知识,要么有体力,什么都没有怎么活命?最终发现她有身体,她可以提供器官服务。在一方有要求,一方可以出售情况下,加上这旧社会已经有的这种生活,现在又被恢复了,全世界的人都在这么,为什么中国人不能这么呢?所以关于现在的中国,我认为你谈得很文雅,我认为70年代出生的这些20多岁的人已经不是这种看法。我们和几个中年女知识分子,著名女作家争论的时候,她们还在扭捏作态,而我说,你看这些十八十九的年轻人直接器官做交易了,你还在遮遮藏藏作甚么,谁会去找你呢。我认为和我们的文化传统关系很大,我们这个道德和伪道德的传统是很有害的。每个人都愿意男盗女娼,从自我出发,谁都是这样的。如果许可他男盗女娼,他一定男盗女娼。当面对别人的时候,当面对是第三者的时候,哪怕一个很开明知识份子,他都会用很尖刻的语言嘲笑你。譬如一个人他嫖妓,吃喝嫖赌他都来的。但他说别人的时候,他总会用很尖刻的语言,其实他比这个人还烂,我认为这是中国文化一个可悲的地方。

徐坦: 那你觉得这仅仅只是中国传统的问题了?跟共产主义运动没关系了?

野牛: 没关系,我认为共产主义意识形态强化了它。

徐坦: 我认为有关系吧, 比如60-70年代的党报元旦社论,就会谈到我们中国是全世界唯一一个没有妓女的国家。这是否跟共产主义原则有关系,否则这有什么好宣传的?

野牛:我认为生命是属于自己的,每个人都应为自己的生命负责负责也包含了他可以自由使用自己的身体伦理道德没有权力干涉。一个人为了生存性交易。像广州许多酒巴,很多中年男人和年轻女子,他们就是快速消费,你陪我喝茶,我买单,然后给小费。我认为这种交换是正当的,那些从农村来的女孩,知识文化都没有,她能给别人什么呢?她只能给别人抚摸肉体。 而那些中年男子他们有剩的财富,在那没有新鲜感的婚姻之外找另外的一种刺激。我认为是正当的,而它对社会带来的危害言之实,夸大了。搞专业的知识份子玩的那点小东西跟政治没有关系,经济利益没有关系,甚至跟老百姓

的观念也没有异议。譬如老百姓提出一个问题:当我只是一个打工的,我什么都没有的时候,我可不可以用我的器官来和你作交易。如果表达这样一种主题的,很多打工妹的都愿意看。因为他们都面临这个问题:我什么都没有,给你亲一下,你给我10块钱。一个人为了生存可以投降当叛徒的话,你在她的奶头上下有什么大不了的呢?况且首先你得先着,在自然界,为了活命任何伪装都可以做的出来的。

徐坦:而且我认为妓女不是一个肮脏的职业。因为我在8年前在上海和上海的一个艺术家争论这个问题。我并不会尊重某个国家总统超一个妓女。因为这个职业是干净,是单纯的。但作为某些总统,他只是一个政客。但我没说中国的总统怎样,因为都不在你的话题之内。

野牛:因为从社会需要的角度看,如果没有性服务工作者的话,大量的弱势阶层、老人,他们的性生活得不到满足,我们看到的更多是有钱的消费阶层为比消费。我们心里感到不平衡。譬如说一个瞎子没机会做,在毛泽东时代大量光棍没看到一个女人。中国的统治者为了所谓的社会稳定,他把他的权利看的太高太重要了,把他的己得利益太重要了,因此他给人民一点自由也没有。他有十个女人他也不会让你一个。

可以说六四以后中国智识阶层就所有文明开明方面的语词都使用尽了。中国政治体制上的笵式和理念可以说也很完备了。我认为关键在于,利益上他们,既得利益者不愿意真正把利益放给社会,放给人民。而不是没有观念,没有一种理想,没有一种可运用性的体制之类的东西,很多方案。像人大、政协,还有比较开明的,比较追求社会进步的知识份子提出了很多运用性很强的制度性东西。但实际上不能实施,就算拟了法也不能实施。我觉得中国还是个很的国家,财富有限,人们对风险这种概念也有限,我们有很多制度盲点,至少是制度理想盲点。大家知道应该怎么做,知道什么是天下为公,但很多人不敢那样去做,不愿那样去做. 我认为症结在这里。外国人看到中国变化,和中国人自己感到的变化,我想是有很大区别的。中国历来都崇洋媚外共产党批判洋奴哲学,大家对外国人有种看法,外国人在中国享受很多,譬如说社会待遇啊、人权上的认可啊、对他们的服务是很周到的。中国人自己感到一定两样的。另外我认为吸引外国人来中国是因为中国廉价肉体中国有大量人口人口是一种资源。一个老外中国就是认识几个中国女孩或妓女。作为一个普通观光者,别的东西,中国文化对他没太大的意义,而中国这个几千年文明的东方大国,她有很多东西可以看,有很多文化遗迹。另外我认为人种是一种资源。这样一些东方瓷娃娃对西方人正是有很大吸引。而不是我们的改革政策对他们的吸引。我们这些东西在他们面前没什么值得炫耀的,就是些泊来品。另外就是中国这个市场,它对那些大资本集团公司还是有吸引力,对后二十年的市场战略性投资,我认为它有它的道理。但你说的,中国现在社会莺歌燕舞?那倒未必。现有个非常矛盾的地方,就是生活已经前进了。譬如广州,我认为广州城市建设水准非常高了,就广州这个城市市场化程度很高了,它已经全球化了。它和资本主义国家的工业文明和后工业文明,没有太大区别。甚至在有些方面,因为“社会主义特色”有之而无不及。我记得96年有个资料显示,海口的妓女了日本。当然按百分比来计算的话,那还有问题,如果我们用其他的衡量标准看,比如说党禁这个角度,一个政党和社团不能自由形成,这个社会资本主义有很大区别。言论出版都受到限制一个社会,肯定不能用资本主义的概念来衡量。

 

Interviewed: Ye-niu (mossback): an underground writer, and a writer who write for other persons without own signature.

Time: January, 2007

Location: Guangzhou

中国 China Chinese 24

社会 social society 19

生存 living live 10

生活 life 11

财富 wealth 8

知识分子 intellectuals 7

利益 benefit 7

身体 body 6

文化 culture 6

改革(开放) reform opening 5

知识 knowledge 4

制度 system 4

政治 political politic 5

矛盾 contradiction 4

直接 directly 4

 

自由 free freedom 5

妓女 prostitute 4

六四 June 4th 2

人权 human rights 2

卖淫 sell oneself 2

党禁 prohibition of parties 2

性服务 erotic service sexual service 2

器官服务 deal with one’s organ 1

性交易 make sexual intercourse 1

扫黄 anti-eroticism campaign 1

意识形态 ideology 1

 

市场(化) market 3

消费 consume 3

资本主义 capitalism 3

社会主义 socialist 2

传统 tradition 2

 

 

Ye-niu: Once we talked about this problem, that is, under the present circumstances, our intellectuals are no longer affectionate towards the others. It is to say, ordinary Chinese people have to face directly to the furious problem of living. For example, those laid-off workers, unemployed young people, including university students who can not find job after their graduation. The demand for living will arouse a lot of social problems. It goes beyond the so-called intellectual enlightenment. Take a prostitute for example, she has nothing, even has no right to sell herself during the anti-eroticism campaign. If she doesn’t want to put up with starvation, she will have to come to the city from the countryside or mountain area. Otherwise, she  won’t be able to go on living. She has nothing except youth and body. Presently the social problem in China is the unfairness appeared during the course of privatization in opening to the outside world. For decades, people could have created limited properties in political struggle. During the quick and unfair distribution of fortune, only a small number of people can accumulate a huge amount wealth, but most people can not. This menace directly to life, as well as a sense of losing in life, could be understood by everyone without being educated. So many peasants rise in rebellion, holding a protest march, and raising an insurrection. Contradiction at the bottom of the society has become very sharp. Different from the early period of reform and opening to the outside world, including the June 4th, The contradiction for existence was till moderate, the social wealth was also not sharply divided. Intellectuals considered knowledge as a public view of value. As a social ideal, ordinary people didn’t know it. It was only an appeal which was of some meaning if it was viewed from the angle of political reform or from the respect for human rights. Jiang Ze-min once urged us to defend the right of existence. Look at those girls who come to do manual work in Guangdong. If they can’t support themselves with the money earned, even they are not allowed to be a prostitute, how can they love this society? How can they love this system? It’s impossible. This has put Chinese intellectuals at a very embarrassed social status. Life has already gone beyond their efforts to push the society forward. Just mow you said we are living in a society that is quite free. As far as the prohibition of parties and freedom of press are concerned, it is still highly limited. Comparing with the Cultural Revolution, the only difference is now you can say what you want to say, but it is confined to private talks. You are not allowed to communicate in public media. Everyone owns his private property—-the body. In socialist planned economy, you’ve got nothing but your own body. However your body doesn’t belong to you. You are not allowed to provide erotic service, because you run counter to morality, and violate the regulation for public security. After China’s economic reform and opening to the outside world, Chinese people have greatly influenced by the widely imported Western cultures.

Besides, with the fast division of social wealth, life of the rich has naturally changed. One of the standards marking the change is that he could have lovers and prostitutes outside his marriage. That is to say, he has the ability to enjoy this diversified life. He has a demand for this. As for the girls coming to Guangdong to do manual work, what do they have? Nothing. But in order to live, she should have something. knowledge or physical force, how could she live if she has nothing? Finally she realizes that she owns her body, and she could provide service with her body. With demand on one side and will for sale on the other, The life of the old days has recovered. People in all over the world live a life like this, why shouldn’t we Chinese? So I think you’ve made a very refined talk about contemporary China. I think people born in 1970s, around the age of 20, will not hold this view. Once I was arguing with several middle-aged woman intellectuals and well-known woman writers, They were affectedly shy.I told them that girls at the age of 18 or 19 would directly make deal with their organs. But you are trying to cover them up. Who cares about you? I think this moral concept is extremely harmful, which is much concerned with our culture tradition. Everyone would like to behave like thieves and whores. If he is allowed, he would certainly do it. When facing to others, especially to a third person, even an enlightened intellectual. He would laugh at you in bitingly words. For example, a whorehouse frequenter, wining and dining and whoring and gambling. When he talks about someone else, he would always use biting words. In fact, he is even more rotten. This is really lamentable for Chinese culture, I think.

 

Xu Tan: you mean it’s simply a problem of Chinese tradition, which has no connection with the communist movement?

 

Ye-niu: Yes. I think it is the communist ideology that strengthens it.

 

Xu Tan: I don’t agree with you. In 1960 and 1970s, we could read editorials on the New Year’s Day, from which we knew that China was the only country in all over the world where you could not find a single prostitute. Does that relate to communist principle? Otherwise, what is the use of such kind of propaganda?

 

Ye-niu: I think life belongs to myself. Everyone is responsible for his own life. This includes that he can freely use his own body without being interfered by ethic and morality. One can make sexual intercourse with others just for existence. Like many middle-aged men found in pubs in Guangzhou, they stay with those young girls who are paid for accompanying them to drink or enjoy themselves. I don’t think this deal is unfair. For an illiterate girl coming from the countryside, what can she give to others except her body? As for a middle-aged man who is really rich enough, it is nothing unusual I think to look for stimulus outside his dull marriage. People, in fact, exaggerates its harmfulness to the society. What professional intellectuals do have nothing to do with politics, economic benefits, even have nothing to do with ordinary people’s ideas. For example, ordinary people would like to ask this question: If I am only a manual worker, and I’ve got nothing, may I use my organ to make a deal with you? If this subject is expressed, it would be welcomed by those woman manual workers, because they always have to face this problem: I’ve got nothing. If you pay me 10 yuan, I would like you kiss me for a while. If one can choose to be a traitor for existence, it’s nothing serious for you to be touched by others on your breasts. Whatever to say, you should first and for most be alive. In nature, you can do everything to disguise yourself in order to live.

 

Xu Tan: to speak further, I don’t think it’s dirty to be a whore. When I was in Shanghai 8 years ago, I argued with an artist of Shanghai about this problem. I don’t want to show more my respect to the president of a certain country than a whore, because I think this profession is pure and clear. As a president, he is only a politician. I didn’t mean the Chinese president, for it’s beyond your topic.

 

Ye-niu: from the view of social demand, a great number of inferior people including old people can not have a satisfactory sexual life if there is no one who would like to provide sexual service. We see more and more rich men spend money just for display.

 

It is said that since the June 4th, all words and expressions concerning civilization and enlightenment have been exhausted by Chinese intellectuals. They have also greatly improved the form and idea in building up Chinese political system.. However, I think, the point is, as far as benefit is concerned, vested interests would not really want to distribute their vested interest to the society as well as the people. Though we have concepts, ideals and something like system available. Progressive intellectuals have put forward in NPC and CPPCC a lot of useful projects related to the building of the system. But nothing can actually be carried into practice, even it is issued by the law. I think China, with limited fortune, is still very poor. People know little about the idea of venture. Besides, in our system there exist quite a lot blind spots, at least it is so for an ideal system. Everyone knows what he or she should to do, they understand that the whole world is one community. But many people dare not to do like that. They are unwilling to do so. This is, I think, where the point is. Foreigners have seen the changes in China, and we too. However we both have quite different views to the change. We Chinese always worship foreign things and toady to foreign powers. So the Chinese communist party criticizes the slavish comprador philosophy. Every one is critical of the foreigners. Foreigners in China can lead a life of pleasure. They can enjoy better treatment in society, recognition of human rights, as well as attentive and satisfactory services. For Chinese themselves they must be treated quite differently. Apart from this, what attracts foreigners to come is just because of the cheap bodies in China. As you know, China is a country with a treat amount of population. It is another kind of resources. When a foreigner comes to China, what he wants to do is to get acquaintance with several Chinese girls or prostitutes. As an ordinary foreign tourist, nothing, including Chinese culture, has to do with him, though China is a great oriental country with a civilization of thousands years where he can see a lot of things as well as many historical relics. Human race is another kind of resource which is really attractive to Western people. For them the most attractive thing is not reform policy, but those Chinese dolls of china. What we have now are imported from them, nothing is worth playing the peacock before them. Another thing is the Chinese market, which is more or less attractive to those big companies in the world to come to make a strategic investment in the coming twenty years. This I think is somewhat reasonable.

 

I don’t agree with you that every where in China today is a scene of prosperity. Yes, we have already improved our lives. In Guangzhou, you can find a very high level of urban construction. The city, highly marketed, and closely related to the world, looks almost the same as those industrial and post-industrial capitalist countries, and goes in some respects even farther than the countries because of our socialist characteristics. According to a statistics in 1996, there were more prostitutes in Haikou than that in Japan. In terms of percentage, it still has problems, of course. If we use another standard to make judgment, for example, the prohibition of parties, This social system is quite different from capitalist system, for a party even a society can not be freely formed. A system in which freedom of speech and publication are limited can certainly not be assessed by the concept of capitalism.

 

 

采访对象:苏建光/Interviewed: Su Jian-guang

采访对象:苏建光,佛教徒,居士,

地点:广州

时间:20052

身(体) body 21

社会 society social 16

暴力 violence 17

非暴力 nonviolence 4

抵抗不抵抗 resist nonresistance 5

宗)教 religion 5

佛教 Buddhism 9

信(信教 believe 12

教育 education 13

还手 hit back 11

心轮mentality heart ring of heart 14

脉(脉轮)    veins 14

关系 matter relation 6

() wisdom intelligent 7

能量 energy 5

prostitute 5

kind 3

Tao principles 3

动手 fight 3

言论 speech 1

犯罪 crime 2

长辈 eldership 2

唯物主义 materialism 2

太平盛世 millenarianism 3

普渡众生 deliver all living creatures from torment 1

方便 convenience 2

精神 spirit 3

宗派 sects 3

密宗 Mi-Zong 3

Qi 1

苏:举例说:譬如在你小时候,你的长辈你,别人吐唾沫给你,你当没发生一样。这是一种教育,一种灌输,也是一种教育,现在你怎么教育小孩呢。 当别人向你吐唾沫的时候,你可能要还手,你是这样,是否其他人也这样呢?我估计大家都差不多。那整个社会的引导和教育会另到大家都会动手。如果你对我动手的话,我一定会对你动手,那么整个社会言论语境都鼓励支持暴力的。你觉得使用暴力很正当对不对,你的长辈就会这么你:别人打你,你一定要还手,那就是一种暴力教育。以前我们的教育是一种非暴力教育。你觉得这有没有关系呢?

徐:我觉得当然有关系了,就像宗教缺损,就像佛教包括印度。强调非暴力的勿抗的,哪怕暴力施加到你们上也是不抵抗的,是吧?它是非暴力的一种

苏:现在我们不能小孩说,别人在街上吐你,你当没发生一样。 因为在以前的社会,你这么做,你是美德,那如果在现在的社会你这么做,你在犯罪,你在纵容别人。当别人吐你,你当没发生一样的时候,他可以把手伸到你的口袋里,把你任何的东西都掏光了,犯罪会加深,对不对?只不过现在的表现形式不一样了,到更具备智慧消化这个事情,比如你提到的这个暴力,需要你更具备智慧,需要你更超越

徐:但是中国几十年从五四运动以后或者说是鸦片战争以后,中国社会就抛弃这种观念。觉得你不抵抗你就得倒霉,实际上就是这样的。

苏:我觉得无论抵抗不抵抗都有个的概念,你有没有整体的指导原则。如果你是个整体的指导原则,我如果是个暴力指导原则的人的话,我可以把暴力做得很高明的。我可以用不使用的暴力的手法对你实施暴力。如果我是个以非暴力作为精神的指导原则的人的话,我可以通过暴力转化暴力,不是以暴夷暴,我可以做到你打我还手,我可以因为你需要教育、转化而使用还手,这是为了精神性,为了而服务的。现在很多人只知你打我我要还手,而不知还手的背后有个动机指导性原则,我为什么要还手,为什么不还手,当你明确了这个动机以后,你还手还是不还手,都被你这个行为动机都被你的指导思想覆盖

徐:以轮回的观念来说:比如说上一世很豪华的一个人,下一世有可能会沦落为别的什么,在过去的社会里,这种观念其实就是这个社会一种价值,适当地安抚了那些失落的人,安抚了那些在社会竞争力中处于劣势的人们, 而在我们这个社会这种观念被批判了。

苏:如果你用这种方式和我沟通,那我和你有个根本不同点,这是长限的问题你的表述是用一种所谓的唯物世界观指导,即,人只有这一辈子。而我的观点不是这一世时空关系。因为我们还必须面对一个问题,比如和刚才你所讲的和暴力的这种关系。比如,这个时代善有善报恶有恶报的话。如果这种观点支持我们的话,我们需要看到有一个结果。譬如好人应有好报,但我们看到,在这个世上好人基本上没有好报,而坏人使用暴力的人使用掠夺的人,他们往往成为强势,那么就会动摇我们的观念。那么,这都是建立上一世的唯物主义观点上的。但有一个情况,如果像我们这种指导原则,如果说有前有后,通过这个指导原则, 你就会发现,在这个时空关系里,是个怎么样的社会氛围。如果,现在是个乱世,大家都使用暴力。大家都掠夺。

徐:所以我还是很乐意退回到价值系统的空缺上。你刚才说得很准确,在这个一世的,唯物主义社会系统里,谁都不再相,就像好人都有得到好报的这样的话。你只有一世,所以该出手时就出手。如果你不出手的话你这一世就妄活了,或者说你就永远妄活了。所以我认为这是很重要的理由。

苏:我们的社会根源在这,你在受这种仰的教育

徐:没有人教育他,他就变成这样的。

苏:你从小受到社会环境教育。整个社会有个过程的演变。大家都要受到这种教育,人是种受   编码的动物。教育其实是对你大脑程序进行编码。而你又按照这样去做了,一种适合这个太平盛世的生存的规则,或者说思想指导系统。当在乱世的时候,用太平盛世的这套游戏规则就不适合,会产生冲突。为什么现在你会觉得有危机感呢?因为现在指导我们的意识形态是冲突的意识形态。而现在的整个系统指导你或人们往冲突,往沉沦上带。但现在这个社会的基础是个太平盛世的基础。就是说物质的东西已经构建得比较完备了,而那种思想指导系统还是乱世、战斗的或者无序的系统。那么你面临的这个危机,如果你引导得不好,那整个社会,整个建设好的东西会崩溃。

苏:譬如有个理念要普渡众生,成就我们做为普遍个体的存在,在基础上提升我们,佛教是一个智慧宗教,它也提到一个方便概念,因势利导叫方便法门。利用你刚才所提到的这里东 西。我们不见得要和这个世界的运作方式抗衡,我们可以像太极拳那样四两拨千斤。如果以这样的指导思想为前提的话,就不存在你对身体怎样去认识,在这个认识的基础上去调整我们自己得到提升,得到超越。我有时感到智慧水平很高的信佛的知识份子,他们对待身体的需要和欲望采取一种所谓的不执着,在一瞬间获得另外一种感悟的,如他不排斥色情等。传统上有不是家历史但可以拿来说明的例子。历史上宋明理学里有二陈,陈浩、陈意两兄弟都是理学大家,是宋明理学的代表人物。一次在酒席当中,别人请来了一个兴,当哥还是当弟的就愤然离去,另外一个就当没事发生一样。第二天愤然离去那个就质问他为何可以这样?他回答,昨晚我是目中有妓心中无。而你今天质问我,你是目中无中有。于是另一个中就转过来了,觉得自己境界不如他兄弟。在佛教密宗里面,特别是西藏密宗里面描述得很精细,它讲到不光是我们这个肉。它讲到我们还有一个微细的在,跟我们身体最有关的是我们的中,左右,还有脉轮。用现在的话来讲就是些生理中,像中医所讲对身体的看法,由各种筋组成,而这种筋又不是解剖学意义上的器官或者通。它是一种能量,由各种脉能量组成。中、左右、然后是顶轮、然后是眉尖喉轮、心轮,这是能量。中和百的缠绕就是所谓的脉轮。认为你一旦中贯通,一旦脉轮被开启的话人身体的潜能就被极大地开发。人的智慧被极大地开发。譬如你打开顶轮就能如庄子所说的天地精神相往来。你能启动你生命的最根本能量心轮能打开的话,就如禅宗所讲:明见性,明就是心轮被打开了,你就能进放到所谓的空性.进入到宇宙和人整个一体性。这是家对身体的一个描述。我们这个肉身身体不是一个最精妙所在。它描述是更深层次,非生理学非解剖学意义上的这个身体.叫细,或密宗说的最细的由能量流由组成的这个身体。其实它是把心智身体看成一体的,

徐:任何对身体的改变开发和闭塞都会带来心智上的变化。

苏:同样你性上的开启的话也会影响到你身体的状况。因为有不同的宗派,它所使用的道物不一样。有些对身体是个否定态度,有些宗派身体是中性的态度。它不见得否定也不见得肯定你的身体,但有些宗派它可以对身体使用肯定的态度。

苏:这么多年用一个信教的形容我是不恰当的。我是从来都不的,我认为我是个佛教徒。这么多年我是用探寻的方式去信教,这么多年我都在看,但我没有相它、探寻它、求证它、看它。现在我总结了一下我自己假设一个人要和我探讨宗教的话,这就是一个探寻的过程,而不是一个相的过程。西方系统是要你去相一个东西,包括宗教里面往往都使用暴力让你信教,让你首先接受这个东西。我认为这就是使用暴力,而我这个人恰恰是属于,即使你对我使用暴力也是无效的,

徐:你刚才说的是一个非常重要的一个说法。就是你信教的过程是一个探寻的过程,而不是  一个相的过程。

苏:反而是一个怀疑过程,有怀疑才有探寻,才有动力去做,才会看这么多的资料去参学,去比较,去用你的眼睛去看。

 

Interviewed: Su Jian-guang, Buddhist

Time: February 2005

Location: Guangzhou

 

身(体) body 21

社会 society social 16

暴力 violence 17

非暴力 nonviolence 4

抵抗不抵抗 resist nonresistance 5

宗)教 religion 5

佛教 Buddhism 9

信(信教 believe 12

教育 education 13

还手 hit back 11

心轮mentality heart ring of heart 14

脉(脉轮)    veins 14

关系 matter relation 6

() wisdom intelligent 7

能量 energy 5

 

prostitute 5

 

kind 3

Tao principles 3

动手 fight 3

言论 speech 1

犯罪 crime 2

长辈 eldership 2

唯物主义 materialism 2

太平盛世 millenarianism 3

普渡众生 deliver all living creatures from torment 1

方便 convenience 2

精神 spirit 3

宗派 sects 3

密宗 Mi-Zong 3

Qi 1

 

 

Su: for example, when you were a little boy, your eldership told you not to care about it when someone spitting at you. This is a way of education, a way of infusion, as well as an education of kindness. How do you educate your children? When someone spits at you, you are likely to do something in return. You react like this. And how about others? I suppose that almost everyone would choose to do something in return. Then the whole society is leading and teaching the people to fight each other. If you hit me, I will certainly hit you back. So the whole social speech and circumstance will tend to encourage or support violence. You think violence is not that bad, isn’t it? Because you are told by your eldership that you should hit it back whenever you are hit. This is an education of violence. But in the past we received an education of nonviolence. Don’t you think it matters very much?

 

Xu: of course I do think it matters. Just like the lack of religion. Like Buddhism and Hinduism, they stress on nonviolence and nonresistance. You would not resist even you are violated. This is nonviolence state of mind.

 

Su: Now we can’t tell our children that you should not care about it when someone spitting at you on the street. This is because in the past, it was regarded as virtue if you did so. Living in today’s society, you commit a crime if you agree to do so. If you don’t care about someone else spitting at you, it is your connivance. He may put his hand in your pocket, take anything away, Don’t you think he has committed a bigger crime? He only difference is nowadays we use different ways. We should have wisdom to cope with it. For example, you mentioned violence just now. You are required to be more sapiential and more transcendent.

 

Xu: But after the May fourth Movement or even after the opium War, we Chinese, for decades, have put away this conception, thinking that you don’t resist you will be down on your luck. Actually it is.

 

Su: I think whether you resist or not resist are something concerning the concept of both “Dao” (principles, Tao) and “Shu” (methods).If I am under the guidance of violence, I may brilliantly use violence, and bring it into effect by ways of nonviolence. If I am under the guidance of nonviolence, I may transform violence by means of violence. It’s not violence for violence. It means I would fight back if you hit me. I may do something in return because you need to be educated and transformed. This is for the sakes of the spirituality and “Dao” (principles, Tao). Many people simply know that I must hit back if being hit by others. But they don’t know that behind it there exists a motive and a principle. Why should I hit it back and why shouldn’t I? As you nail down your motive, your decision to hit or not will certainly be guided by your motive and your principle.

 

Xu: According to the idea of samsara in Buddhism, a person might live a very luxurious life in his preexistence, and is likely to be reduced to poverty afterworld. This idea, as a matter of fact, was regarded in the past time as a value widely accepted by the society, which moderately conciliated those losing people. The idea to conciliate those who strive to get rid of their inferiority is being criticized in our society.

 

Su: if you tend to communicate with me in this way, I should say that the basic difference between you and me is the problem of time limitation. What you said just now is guided by the world view of materialism, that is to say, a person can only live three score years and ten. I don’t think that we should be limited to one-life time and space, because we have to face one question. For example, just now you talked about the relationship between man and violence. Another example, you said that in our time, good is rewarded with good , and evil with evil.If we want to find support for this view, we need to see a result.For instance, a good person should be regarded with good. However, what we see is good men in this world, generally speaking, can not be regarded with good, while those evil men who use violence could always be dominant. So it will wave our conception.All these are built on the view of materialism which believes a person can only live one life.But one thing I should mention here, if this principle of guidance,I mean, if we admit that there exist the so called preexistence and the after world, under the guidance of this principle, you may find how the social atmosphere is within this time and space.

 

Xu: In this case, I would like to go back to the absence of value systems.What you said just now is very correct. In a social system that materialism is widely accepted, nobody believesthat good men could rewarded with good.You’ve got only one life to live, so whenever you want to do something, just go for it If you fail to do so, you will have wasted all your life.Therefore, I think this is very important reason.

 

Su: Here lays the cause of the society. You are influenced by this belief.

 

Xu: He becomes a man like this without any education.

 

Su: You are educated by the social circumstances in your childhood. The whole society develops gradually. Everyone can not avoid this education. Our human beings are coded animals. Education, as a matter of fact, is to program your brain. And you just do things according to it. In troubled times it is not suitable to follow the games rule of the millenarianism, because it will produce conflict. Why do you think now that you’ve got a sense of crisis? because our leading ideology is a conflicting one.Today the whole system is leading people to collision and depravity. But the foundation of this society is that of millenarianism. That is to say, the construction of substances has been greatly improved.The ideological system of the society remains troubling, fighting and out of order.

Then facing to this crisis, if people are not well guided, the whole society as well as those that have been built up will collapse.

 

Su: For instance, there has an idea in Buddhism which believes in delivering all living creatures from torment. It accomplishes our existence as universal individuality, and upgrades us on the base.As an intelligent religion, Buddhism also mentions the concept of convenience. The way of convenience is to adroitly guide action according to circumstances. To take advantage of what you mentioned just now, We don’t have to fight against the operational ways in this world. We can get twice the result with half the effort just like playing Taiji.If led by this thought it will be useless talking about how to understand the body.On the basis of this cognition we can adjust ourselves so as to make an advancement and transcendency. Sometimes I think intellectuals, who are also very intelligent Buddhists, take a very flexible way to treat their desire for the body, so as to get another kind of understanding at the certain moment. For instance, they don’t exclude eroticism. In Chinese history there were examples that might be used to prove it. During Song Dynasty, there were two brothers, Chenhao and Chenyi who were regarded as masters of Neo-Confucianism.One day , the two were present on a banquet and a prostitute was called to add.Seeing this, one left angrily, but the other seemed as if nothing had happened.The next day when the one who had left asked the other how he could have done so, “Yesterday evening I just followed the prostitute with my eyes, but didn’t keep my mind on her,” replied the one who were questioned by the one who had left angrily. “And now you are questioning me, this proves you keep your mind on the prostitute, though you consider her beneath your notice.”Hearing this, he realized that he couldn’t reach the realm of thought as the other.In Buddhism the Mi-Zong sect, especially the sect in Tibet, gives a very detailed description of our human being’s body.Besides the body, we still have other tiny one.What relate most to our body are the cardinal veins, the vein on the left the vein on the right, and the ring of veins.Actually they are now called physiological centre.According to traditional Chinese medicine, man’s body consists of all kinds of muscles and veins. It is not an organ or an alleyway in anatomy.It is an alleyway of energy, consists of variety of vein energies. Cardinal vein, veins on the left and on the right, then the ring of top, the ring of glabella, the ring of heart, these are energetic centre.Interweaving cardinal vein with other veins is what we call ring of vein.It is said that once the cardinal vein is run through and the ring of vein is turned on, the potentiality of man’s body as well as his wisdom will be greatly opened up. For example, if you can open your top ring, you will be able to communicate with the spirit of whole universe. You can start up the most essential energies in your life. When the ring of heart is opened up, you will be able to see clearly the nature of this world, as a Zenist believes, and totally syncretising with the universality as a whole. This is a description of the body. According to Buddhism, man’s body is not the most beautiful one. At a higher level, there exists another body called small and tiny body, which is not in relation to anatomical physiology. Or, according to the Mi-Zong sect, the smallest body is constituted by Qi, veins and the move of energy.Actually it sees both the body and mentality as a whole.

 

Xu: Any change, opening –up and blocking up of the body will bring changes to mentality.

 

Su:If your mentality is opened up, the state of your body will certainly be affected. Because different sects use different means to express their ideas. Some of them have a negative attitude toward the body, some have moderate attitude, not affirming nor denying the body. However, there are sects that have an affirmative attitude toward the body.

 

Su: it is out of the way to say that for years I have only been a religion believer. I have never been so. Yes, I think I am a Buddhist. For years I have been exploring it. I perceive, but I don’t believe, I try to explore it, prove it instead.Generally speaking, if anyone who wants to talk about religion with me, I would like to say it is a course of exploration, not a course of believing.In Western system, you are called to believe something, including religion. You are always forced to believe in it, to accept it first.

I think it is a kind of violence. I am simply a person who would not accept it even you do violence to me.

 

Xu: What you said just now is very important. The course of believing a religion is a course of exploration instead of believing.

 

Su: On the contrary, it is a course of disbelieving. With doubt we are driven to explore it, to collect so many materials in order to make a better understanding of it, to compare it, and to see it with your own eyes.

采访对象:艾伟/Interviewed: Ai Wei

*Video:艾偉01

 

采访对象:艾伟, 武汉宏伟地产公司经理

时间: 2005115

地点: 武汉

(资产 地产 不动产 房产)    property(land real estate)    16

消费 consume consumption 13

社会 society 11

物质 material 13

观念 concept 8

跟风(潮)   faddism 3

国外 abroad foreign 7

条件 condition 8

信仰 belief 9

历史 history 4

文化 culture 5

欲望 desire 5

精神 mental mind spirit 7

(宗)教 religion 6

身体 body 3

享受 enjoy 5

阶层 social classes 3

开放(公开) open 3

客户 clientele 2

有钱 richness 2

信誉 prestige 2

商品 commercial 2

美女 beautiful girls 2

fussy 2

贷款 loan 1

抵押 mortgage 1

体面 propriety 1

代理 agent 1

体制 security 1

本能 basic need 1

娱乐 entertainments 1

现代 modern 1

信息 information 2

保障 guarantee 2

艾伟:我做地产代理这行实际上已经有将近7年的时间了,而且中国国内人的状态都是朦朦胧胧的,很。不管我们接触的客户也好,还是公司年轻的员工,才20多岁,整个心态都。而且我们的客户表现在消费上的观念行为并不成熟。而且中国消费跟风潮非常厉害。就是说,实际上中国的房地产这两年的涨势非常飞快,很多情况下也是盲目的跟风,而且在购房选房中无目的的跟风比较明显。特别是中国的房地产这种消费观念国外消费观念完全是不一样的。判断中国的房地产消费不能用国外的标准和习惯。在中国,有钱的人最直接的体现就是要有资产地产不动产,是中国人表现富有最直接的一方面。还有很重要的一方面,就是中国还没有很大的信誉体系构造前提下,那么能够体现人最基本的信誉保障就是房。你跑出去向别人借钱,找银行贷款也好,要拿资产抵押,什么是资产,就是房。从这种角度来出发,中国的房地产开发它不仅仅是一个住的空间,一个载体了。它存在一个信用的一个载体,而且是能够体现自己资产体面的一个载体,住在什么地方,直接体现他的身份,中国很多人买房,他不是为了住外国人看见没有人住,空置率很高,或者泡沫很严重。其实上完全不是这么回事,它就像把钱存到银行里是一样的,这个概念是一样的。中国突然从一个封闭的社会向一个开放商品社会转换,不管是在共产党严密管理下的思想上的教说情况下突然一下放开。人的需求是本能的释放,不是什么世风日下的这种观念。它可能暂时在这一点上是这样子,但整体看来它是一个必然的过程。比如说看三亚的世界小姐选美比赛,外国的美女,眼里都是柔光,看中国的美女眼里都是凶光,也可以说是很锐利的目光。那在这些目光里藏的是什么呢?肯定是宝马豪宅金钱。那么实际上就是满眼都是欲望。整个社会是没有能力去抵御或者分析我应该接受什么或不接受什么。现在就是我整个接受它,我不担心整个社会会到欲望横流的时候。因为中国五千年积累的传统,绝对不会因为这短短20年商品文化就被冲刷掉的。在整个商业时间里面它会淘洗。现在国民不成熟的这种消费观念,或者过度与物质化的这种消费观念实际上到了你有一定物质基础的时候必然就会好,也就是它实际上是历史长河里你必须走的一步,我不担心这个问题。老一点的人担心它是因为他受的教育,他所不能接受的。但从时间上是可以接受的。因为中国到现在多数人吃饭还是用筷子,用筷子的这双手,哪怕是暂时用刀叉吃东西,操作的习惯绝对是用筷子的习惯。这件事反映了文化底蕴的东西,中国的文化底蕴太深厚了,所有外来文化都能同化。哪怕现在这种消费观念,最后在中国大陆里进行一个淘洗,然后走上一个比较正常的轨道。实际上在中国,对身体享受这些东西,在中国人骨子里和中国以前社会是存在的,只是阶层分化比较明显。它的阶层身体消费程度和形式不一样,比如士大夫,他们对那种游山玩水,歌伎啊什么东西,他从那个层面去消化它,那更下一层他们的娱乐方式就不一样了。到我们现代这个社会开放程度非常高了,每个阶层做每个事情的时候,任何人都会知道,他交流的程序都很公开。就像电影手机里费默说的一句话,如果是在农业社会,我出去一两年做什么都是可以成立的。但在我们这个社会,包括我们消费的一些东西,包括一些身体的一些享受。在以前的中国社会历史里面都是存在的,只是说形式不一样而已。中国目前所有消费的这种东西都能在中国以前的历史中找到相似的东西,只是现在因为信息爆炸,公开的东西太多了,大家了解程度太高了,欲望变得好像非常强烈,些人对这种享受的东西,只要物质达到了一定的基础都会去追求一些享受。只是以前享受的形式就是骑马啦,听歌做诗什么的。而现在就是唱歌啊,对物质的拥有啊。我觉得把中国许多事情放到历史里面去看待它的话,都不会觉得很奇怪。

徐坦:都是自然而然发生的。

艾伟:对,只是现在所做的事比以前的更过分而已。任何一种欲望不能让你压住或反对它。我觉得两个方面,首先他没有这个物质条件,另外一个是在那一代人的脑筋里是有信仰的。如马克思、毛泽东思想,而且社会保障体制比较完善,它能满足中国人最基本的那种精神需求。他生活非常安逸,因为信仰的关系。他可能不去追求物质,首先到达到一个精神层次,首先要从物质上面有个质变过程,然后精神上才有个质变;第二他物质条件比较贫乏;第三整个社会创造了一种氛围让你不去想更多的东西。

徐坦:因为一旦条件变了,即使你有信仰也会很危险。真正的条件会摧毁这种过去时代带来的信仰。那个年代我们会认为要建立反对那种极权的系统。但实际上不用你去反对,这个条件是足以摧毁那些不合时宜的思想和信仰

艾伟:还有就是我们老担心我们的这种欲望太强烈,会不会对后一代有什么影响。国内和国外是不一样,国外是有宗教信仰,但在中国,不管是佛教还是道教,他不是宗教。在没有信仰的国家里,用什么去评判他的这种道德,终究还是要依靠到文化这个层面上来。这就是中国的消费观念,你不能和国外比,用国外的标准来评价,实际上中国再经过二十年的发展,真正到了欧洲的消费水平,自然有些东西就会消亡,而且人们素质对精神层面的要求必然会成熟。我们也会看到现在有些有钱的人也会去做一些宗教信仰的事,基督教天主教佛教……不管最终是否正确,他都会去做这个事。因为他觉得物质基础满足以后,必须要在一个精神层面上来有个寄托,越是物质财富越多,没有精神寄托。物质对他来说就像一把双刃剑一样是可以杀他,他就越觉得没有成就感。

徐坦:从我们的交谈中,从你那里我充分体会到物质生活条件的改变决定了我们的精神生活。

哪怕你原来你有一个很坚如磐石的,特殊材料构成的人的信仰也会被这个条件所改变。

而且这种改变还会随物质的改变还会达到一个新的情况。你觉得这种你的看法是否代表了很广泛的这一代的企业家、实业家或一般的青年人的想法?

艾伟:这个没有交流过。

 

Interviewed: Ai Wei, manager of Hong Wei Real Estate Ltd

Location: Wuhan

Time: January 15 2005

(资产 地产 不动产 房产)    property(land real estate)    16

消费 consume consumption 13

社会 society 11

物质 material 13

观念 concept 8

跟风(潮)   faddism 3

国外 abroad foreign 7

条件 condition 8

信仰 belief 9

历史 history 4

文化 culture 5

欲望 desire 5

精神 mental mind spirit 7

(宗)教 religion 6

身体 body 3

享受 enjoy 5

阶层 social classes 3

开放(公开) open 3

 

客户 clientele 1

有钱 richness 2

信誉 credit 2

商品 commercial 2

美女 beautiful girls 2

fussy 2

贷款 loan 1

抵押 mortgage 1

体面 propriety 1

代理 agent 1

体制 security 1

本能 basic need 1

娱乐 entertainments 1

现代 modern 1

信息 information 2

保障 guarantee 2

 

Ai Wei: I have been working as a real estate agent for almost 7 years.And, the Chinese are in a fussy condition, like our clients or the young employees, Only in their 20s, but they are all fussy.The consuming behavior of our clientele is still premature.In China there is a strong trend of faddism in the view of consumption. In fact, Chinese real estate is booming these two years, But frequently it is a sort of faddism. It becomes even more obvious in the select and purchase. First of all, Chinese consuming conception is totally different from that in the West.You can not judge Chinese real estate consumption with western standards. In China, the representation of richness is property, land, and estate.The clearest sign of fortune. Being so long in the business, I feel like that Even china is in a vivid discussion about real estate bubble, I still think that the Chinese real estate just has started.Another point, China still lacks a well-structured credit system;in this case, real estate stands for one’s guarantee.If you borrow money for someone, or apply for a bank loan, you will need mortgage. What is it? Real estate.Thus, real estate is not only a carrier of housing,But also a carrier of credit, furthermore, an honorable carrier that represents one’s richness. Tell me where you live, how well you live, I will tell you who you are. Many Chinese buy houses, but not for living. Foreigners see empty houses and think it is a bubble. It is not true.It is the same as saving money in the bank.China took a leap from a blocked out society to an open, commercial society. The minds that were under the strict control of CCP suddenly open up.The release of desire is a basic need of humans.It has nothing to do with putridness. Maybe at this point. But it is a necessary step.For instance, in the Miss World contest in Sanya, When we look into foreign beautiful girls’ eyes, we see tenderness, While in Chinese beautiful girls’ eyes, we see atrocity, or should I say sharpness. What is hidden in their eyes? BMW, mansions, cash. In fact they are eyes full of desire. The whole society is unable to resist or analyze what we should accept or should not.I am accepting all. I am not worried about the putridness of the society. Because the Chinese tradition accumulated during 5000 years, cannot be wiped out by those 20 years of commercial culture. It is a process of elimination In fact, the premature consuming conception, Or the over material conception, will be better as long as we have a better material foundation. It is a must-cross in the river of history. I’m not worried about it. The elderly worry because of the education they received cannot take it, but it is acceptable for time.The reason why I am optimistic is that most of the Chinese still eat with chopsticks. Their hands re used to chopsticks. Even they eat sometime with knives and forks. They use them in a way as they are using chopsticks. It reflects the cultural accumulation. The accumulation of Chinese culture is so profound. It can assimilate any alien culture. So this consuming conception will get on the right way after being selected in China. Sensualism has always existed in the heart of the Chinese and in the ancient society, But it varies in different social classes. It varies in the extent and the form of body consumption. For example, the scholars enjoy sightseeing and geishas, While other classes have other entertainments. Our modern society is widely open. Every thing done by anybody could be know by everyone. The communication is open. Like Fei Mo said in <Cell phone>, ‘In the agricultural society, anything I have done could be true, as long as I am away. ’Everything we are consuming, merchandises, physical entertaining, Have already existed in ancient Chinese history, maybe in a different form. Everything we are consuming, we can find it in Chinese history. Only because information is exploding, so many are published, so well that we know each other, desire seems to be stronger. Once the material production has reached a certain level, people pursue other enjoyments. They used to be riding a horse, listening to a song or composing a poem, now they are karaoke, possession of products. I don’t think a lot things will be bizarre if we look at them with a view of history.

 

Xu Tan: Everything is natural.

 

Ai Wei: Yes, just more brutal.You can’t oppose or oppress any desire.I am thinking two reasons. At first, they did not have the condition. On the other hand, that generation had a belief on their mind,

Such as Marxism, Maoism, and the social guarantee security was relatively complete.It satisfied the basic spiritual needs of the Chinese. They were living an easeful life and because of the belief, it was possible not to pursue the material. First moving forward on the mind, and an achievement on the material level, Then the achievement on the mind. In the era, firstly you didn’t have the access to the new creation; Secondly the material condition was poor; Thirdly the society created an atmosphere that prevented you from thinking about more.

 

Xu Tan: once the condition has changed, it would be dangerous even with the belief. The real condition will destroy the belief from the past.We thought we had to oppose to totalitarianism, but we did not. The condition itself is enough to destroy any thoughts and beliefs that are out of time.

 

Ai Wei: One more thing is that we are always worried about if our desire gets overwhelming, It will influence the next generation. But China is different from abroad. Abroad there are religions, in China, neither of Buddhism or Daoism is considered a religion. What judges moral in a country without belief? It is culture. This is the Chinese consuming conception. It cannot be compared with alien conception, or judged with alien standards. 20 years from now, when China is on the same consumption level as Europe, something will vanish, naturally. The demand of mind will be also mature. We will see the rich doing religious things, Christian, catholic, Buddhist… Whether it is correct, they will do it.Because they think when the material is fulfilled, They mentally need to rely on something. The more material they own, if they do not have a mental support, The material will kill them, as it was a two-blade sword, Thus, the less accomplished they feel.

 

Xu Tan: From our conversation, I perfectly understand that the change of material determine our spirit. Even if you are a toughest person made of special material, You will be changed by the condition.And this sort of changes will reach a new extent along with the material. Do you think you represent a vast part of entrepreneurs, industrialists and common youth?

 

Ai Wei: I haven’t communicated with them.

 

采访对象:沈蔚芳/Interviewee: Shen Weifang

采访对象:沈蔚芳(张江信息产业集团中层管理人员)

采访时间:2006814

浦东 Pudong 7

现代(化) modern modernization 3

规划 layout 7

居住 live living residential 4

生活 live living life 12

城市 city 11

大城市 metropolis metropolitan 4

工业 industry 5

集中(化congregate 9

工作 working 6

road 3

活跃 active 3

环境 surrounding 3

商业 business 5

感情 feeling 1

放松 relax 2

舒适 舒服 comfort 1

交通 traffic 2

便利 easy 2

市区 urban 2

功能 function 2

概念 concept 1

自然 nature 2

国外 foreign 2

定位 orientation 1

村落 village 1

old dated 2

开发 development 2

(动)迁 removal 2

居民 residents 2

改变 change 1

公寓 apartment 1

房子 houses 2

我大学毕业以后,一直在浦东工作

I’ve been working in Pudong since my graduation from universty,

所以对这个地方还是比较有感情的,也是看着它一点一点成长起来的,

so I have special feeling toward this place, seeing it grow little by little,

从最早的,农村的比较房子,变化成为一个现代感觉的城市

from the early rural old houses to a modern city.

总体来说,规划和绿化都比较好,比较开阔,

Generally it is a open space with good layout and green belts.

住在这里,有一种放松感觉,比较适合居住,Here is relaxing and good for living.

上海是个大城市,在浦东就没有那种在大城市的压抑感,

Shanghai is a metropolis, while in Pudong there is little metropolitan depression.

相对来说工作生活,心情比较放松

Comparitively say, working and life are more relaxed.

生活来讲,也不是只要现代化就行了,而是要规划得好,要比较舒适

Life needs not only modernization, but good layout and comfort.

小区整体感觉要优美,虽然在市区,但是环境安逸,没有嘈杂,喧闹,

The community should be beautiful as a whole, and the surrounding, even in the urban part,

is tranquil without noises or uproar,

交通生活比较便利,对我来讲,就比较好了,

and the traffic is easy. That would be ideal for me.

浦东本身是大城市,离繁华的现代生活比较近,这样的生活对我来说比较合适,

Pudong is part of the metropolis, not far from the prosperous modern life, which fits me

well.

浦东标比较鲜明,的纵横布局比较清晰,容易寻找,

The road signs in Pudong are explicit, and layout is easy to read and to orient.

而在上海市区你就必须看地图了,While in Shanghai you have to read the map.

另外从规划来讲,商业布局,住,工业布局

As to the layout, business zone, residential zone and industry zone,

工业集中化,商业集中化,住宅集中化,有明显的功能区分,

are all split with distinctive functions.

你到了一个地方,心里比较有数,

which is easy to be recognized  everywhere.

居住工作来说,概念比较清晰,感觉比较舒服

As to the living and working, the concepts are clear and feels comfortable.

上海的城市规划应该是不错的,

The city layout of Shanghai is quite good.

国外很多城市建设强调贴近自然,对于工业规划比较集中

Many foreign city constructions put emphasis on nature, and the industries are congregated.

对于居住来讲,讲究贴近自然的原貌,

As for living, they prefer the original look of nature.

浦东是新城市,在规划理念上接近国外方式,

Pudong is a new city and arranged in a foreign ways.

工业比较集中的区域放在离居住区比较远的地方,

The industry zone is put far form the business and residential zone.

交通规划上设置一些纵横的干道,便于在这里工作的人出入。

Crossovers and main streets are programmed to facilitate the employees commuting.

清晰的定位。作为一个大城市工业和真正城市功能有清晰的划分。

An explicit orientation. As a bif city, the industry is split clearly from the city

functions.

我刚到的时候这里的建筑都是两层楼,带有院子的。

When I just arrived, buildings were two-floor ones with yards,

以本地的村落形式存在,比较

existing as a form of dated village.

开发以后,对原来的居民实行动迁

After the development, the original residents were removed,

原来的居民集中在相对集中的地方,还是在他们原来生活的土地上。

still living in their original place ,but more congregated.

对于他们的移,对于城市的建设。他们好像还是比较高兴的。

They seemed happy with their removal and the citys construction,

对他们原来的生活有了比较大的改变

which changed their life a lot.

从后来自家院落形式变成集中公寓,从整体浦东开发建设中他们得到很多好处。

The dated houses became modern apartments. They benefit a lot from the overall development

in Pudong,

生活环境和配套设施和住房条件都得到改善,虽然原来他们的房子也不错。

with their living surroundings, supporting facilities and housing improved. Though they

had been living in not bad houses,

但是大环境比如道都改善了。当地人的生活水平相对比以前提高。

the big surrounding like roads have changed for better, and the native’s life level has

been raised.

浦东也好,张江也好,还是比较活跃的地方,最大的感受就是活力

No matter Pudong or Zhangjiang, active place makes you feel the energy in it.

忙碌工作还是居家,生活都比较让你觉得这是一块活跃的土地。

Both the busy working and family life make you feel this is an active land,

让你有一种冲动,想在这土地上继续工作生活下去。

giving you the impetus to go on working and living in this place.

 

Interviewee: Shen Weifang

Location: Zhangjiang, Shanghai

Time: August 14, 2006

采访对象沈蔚芳张江信息产业集团中层管理人员

采访时间:2006814

 

 

浦东 Pudong 7

现代 modern modernization 3

规划 layout 7

居住 live living residential 4

生活 live living life 12

城市 city 11

大城市 metropolis metropolitan 4

工业 industry 5

集中congregate 9

工作 working 6

road 3

活跃 active 3

环境 surrounding 3

商业 business 5

 

感情 feeling 1

放松 relax 2

舒适 舒服 comfort 1

交通 traffic 2

便利 easy 2

市区 urban 2

功能 function 2

概念 concept 1

自然 nature 2

国外 foreign 2

定位 orientation 1

村落 village 1

old dated 2

开发 development 2

() removal 2

居民 residents 2

改变 change 1

公寓 apartment 1

房子 houses 2

 

 

我大学毕业以后,一直在浦东工作

I’ve been working in Pudong since my graduation from universty,

所以对这个地方还是比较有感情的,也是看着它一点一点成长起来的,

so I have special feeling toward this place, seeing it grow little by little,

从最早的,农村的比较房子,变化成为一个现代感觉的城市

from the early rural old houses to a modern city.

总体来说,规划和绿化都比较好,比较开阔,

Generally it is a open space with good layout and green belts.

住在这里,有一种放松感觉,比较适合居住,Here is relaxing and good for living.

上海是个大城市,在浦东就没有那种在大城市的压抑感,

Shanghai is a metropolis, while in Pudong there is little metropolitan depression.

相对来说工作生活,心情比较放松

Comparitively say, working and life are more relaxed.

生活来讲,也不是只要现代化就行了,而是要规划得好,要比较舒适

Life needs not only modernization, but good layout and comfort.

小区整体感觉要优美,虽然在市区,但是环境安逸,没有嘈杂,喧闹,

The community should be beautiful as a whole, and the surrounding, even in the urban part,

is tranquil without noises or uproar,

交通生活比较便利,对我来讲,就比较好了,

and the traffic is easy. That would be ideal for me.

浦东本身是大城市,离繁华的现代生活比较近,这样的生活对我来说比较合适,

Pudong is part of the metropolis, not far from the prosperous modern life, which fits me

well.

浦东标比较鲜明,的纵横布局比较清晰,容易寻找,

The road signs in Pudong are explicit, and layout is easy to read and to orient.

而在上海市区你就必须看地图了,While in Shanghai you have to read the map.

另外从规划来讲,商业布局,住,工业布局

As to the layout, business zone, residential zone and industry zone,

工业集中化,商业集中化,住宅集中化,有明显的功能区分,

are all split with distinctive functions.

你到了一个地方,心里比较有数,

which is easy to be recognized  everywhere.

居住工作来说,概念比较清晰,感觉比较舒服

As to the living and working, the concepts are clear and feels comfortable.

上海的城市规划应该是不错的,

The city layout of Shanghai is quite good.

国外很多城市建设强调贴近自然,对于工业规划比较集中

Many foreign city constructions put emphasis on nature, and the industries are congregated.

对于居住来讲,讲究贴近自然的原貌,

As for living, they prefer the original look of nature.

浦东是新城市,在规划理念上接近国外方式,

Pudong is a new city and arranged in a foreign ways.

工业比较集中的区域放在离居住区比较远的地方,

The industry zone is put far form the business and residential zone.

交通规划上设置一些纵横的干道,便于在这里工作的人出入。

Crossovers and main streets are programmed to facilitate the employees commuting.

清晰的定位。作为一个大城市工业和真正城市功能有清晰的划分。

An explicit orientation. As a bif city, the industry is split clearly from the city

functions.

我刚到的时候这里的建筑都是两层楼,带有院子的。

When I just arrived, buildings were two-floor ones with yards,

以本地的村落形式存在,比较

existing as a form of dated village.

开发以后,对原来的居民实行动迁

After the development, the original residents were removed,

原来的居民集中在相对集中的地方,还是在他们原来生活的土地上。

still living in their original place ,but more congregated.

对于他们的移,对于城市的建设。他们好像还是比较高兴的。

They seemed happy with their removal and the citys construction,

对他们原来的生活有了比较大的改变

which changed their life a lot.

从后来自家院落形式变成集中公寓,从整体浦东开发建设中他们得到很多好处。

The dated houses became modern apartments. They benefit a lot from the overall development

in Pudong,

生活环境和配套设施和住房条件都得到改善,虽然原来他们的房子也不错。

with their living surroundings, supporting facilities and housing improved. Though they

had been living in not bad houses,

但是大环境比如道都改善了。当地人的生活水平相对比以前提高。

the big surrounding like roads have changed for better, and the native’s life level has

been raised.

浦东也好,张江也好,还是比较活跃的地方,最大的感受就是活力

No matter Pudong or Zhangjiang, active place makes you feel the energy in it.

忙碌工作还是居家,生活都比较让你觉得这是一块活跃的土地。

Both the busy working and family life make you feel this is an active land,

让你有一种冲动,想在这土地上继续工作生活下去。

giving you the impetus to go on working and living in this place.

 

采访对象:姬朝晖/Interviewed: Ji Zhao Hui

采访对象:姬朝晖(张江信息产业集团部门经理)

采访时间:2006年8月14日

环境 environment surroundings 6(其中“环保” 1)

时间 time 5

客户 client 4

(开车) car drive 6

生活(过日子) live life 10

live 2

roosters hookers 4

工作 working 3

tired harder 3

SARS 2

开发 development 2

老外 foreigner 2

别墅 villa 1

家人 family 2

朋友 friends 2

能源 resources 1

文化 culture 2

小资情调 bourgeoisie sentiment 1

美国人 American 2

我在张江呆得最长的时候就是那年SARS的时候,我们五一回不了家, The longest period I’ve stayed in Zhangjiang is during the spread of SARS, when we could not go back in the Labor’s Day.

我们戏称这里是鸟不生蛋的地方。In our joke this is a place where even birds would not lay eggs.

客观上讲干活还是可以的。但是配套设施上还有一段距离的, Objectively it is not a bad plce for working, but still needs improvement as to the supporting facilities.

环境当然是好的,但是大家不能光看到环境这个关键词啊, Of course the environment is nice, but only it is not enough.

还有就是这边做开发不错的。 It’s not bad for research program,

但是说做商务如客户要到这边就是很麻烦的。but not right for business, for the clients have to take great trouble to come.

但是确实这边环境是越好,但有也有不好, The environment is indeed good here, but every coin has two sides.

就是在张江能激发你的工作和创造热情和享受惬意的生活。In Zhangjiang your working and creating passion would be inspired and you could enjoy a comfortable life.

那我能长在这里那肯定是好的了。It would be ideal for me to stay here for a long time.

但问题是,平常过日子,小孩上学这条件,氛围还是是不如城市设施。But the problem is, the facilities are still not as good as the urban ones as for everyday life and children’s education.

反正我觉得不能学老外,像我在开发区有很多专家组成员,Anyway we cannot follow the foreigners example. There are many expert group members in the development zone.

听他们说什么老外啊,多好的环境,多大的草坪啊,能经常开车来上班,回去后别墅。It is said that the foreigners enjoy wonderful surroundings and great, they drive to company and live in villas.

这种日子不是人人都能过的。我们决大多数还是要靠坐公共汽车上下班的。But this is not a life everyone can live. Most of us have to commute by bus.

我们员工中有汽车的还只是一部分, Only part of the employees own cars.

我个人的观点从环保角度来说。开车不是件好事情,油费还是很高的,对不? In my point of view, driving is not environmentally friendly. Plus the petrol is quite expensive, isn’t it?

为什么说有汽车生活就是好生活。谁都会知道这种的是好的。Does the car means good life? We all know that it’s convenient,

换另一种思维来讲,你不能美国人一样生活,but on the other way, you cannot live like the Americans do.

美国人才2-3亿人口就消耗了全球一半的能量。With a population of only 200 to 300 million, America consumes half of the global resources.

如果按那种算法,光上海市就会把中国能源的50%给干掉了。这都是不可能的。In this way, Shanghai itself could use half of Chinas resources, which is impossible.

确实张江这个创业环境,政府的关注,这都是蛮不错的。The surrounding in Zhangjiang and government’s support for entrepreneurship is indeed good.

客观上讲,从现实,实际上讲,生活的便利性,作为工作地点是对的,可以的。Objectively, it is practically acceptable and convenient enough as a working place.

但是配套设施上还是要给张江提点意见的。 But its supporting facilities need to be improved yet.

我觉得工作的地点生活距离还是不要拉得太远。 I think the distance between the working zone and residential zone is too far.

像我的老家在成都,我们有个地方叫都江堰,In my hometown there is a place named Dujiang Weir.

上海我们相当与从成都开车都江堰上班。In Shanghai we commute through a distance as that between Chengdu and Dujiang Weir,

我现在在徐家汇,从时间上讲花的时间都差不多的,这在成都是不可想象的。for I live in Xujiahui and spend almost so much time, which is unimaginable in Chengdu.

你的很多时间都花在路上了,无论是跟家人,跟朋友沟通都有问题。You have to spend much time on road, which means communication problems with family and friends.

像我们这种行业,本来就属于IT, Like our industry, as part of IT industry,

有句话说,起得比早睡得比晚,干的活比牛,吃的比猪还差。 people say that we get up earlier than roosters and sleep later than hookers, work harder than oxen and eat worse than pigs.

在这里像我们的公司加班是常事,所以说干得比牛,吃得比猪差。In our company to work overtime is commonplace, i.e. work harder than oxen and eat worse than pigs.

起得比早睡得比那个还晚。 By getting up ealier than the roosters and sleep later than hookers.

上次我们去外地出差,有个同事11点钟睡觉4点钟起来干活,都是这样辛苦。I mean we are tired, like last time we went to other cities for business, one colleague slept at 11 p.m. and got up to work at 4 a.m.

所以肯定是希望把多点时间花在和家人在一起,这是从生活上来讲的。So certainly we want to spend more time with our family. This is the living aspect.

另外还是希望有些业余的文化生活,但上海这边就比较小资情调,我们都不是太那个。Then we hope there are some recreational cultural life. Shanghai is full of petty bourgeoisie sentiment, which is not for our taste.

还是和同事朋友之间进行有益的文化活动,但现在没有时间。 We need some meaningful cultural activities with colleagues and friends, but we have no time for them.

关键词

,

我觉得现实还是太。 I think it is too tired in life.

我觉得能抓得到的主动权更大些就好了, I feel it would be good if we could have more initiatives.

如有一个客户给我打电话,他在徐家汇,现在是4点钟, If a client call me. He lives in Xujiahui and now it is 4 p.m.

我要跑过去,要一个半小时,就是六点钟了,It takes an hour and a half to go there, making p.m.六点半他又要出去约会,这我就只有半个小时和他谈话, At half past 6 he has an appointment, leaving me only a half hour.

那我还能搞什么哪?基本上什么事情也谈不了。Then I almost can do nothing about it.

从见客户这方面来说还是在浦西比较好。 So as to see the client, I think Puxi is better.

像张江做生产基地确实比较好,但是做为生活基地,我总觉得应该随意,自如些。 Zhangjiang is a good place for manufacturing base, but for livng base I think it should be more comfortalbe and at ease.

 

Interviewed: Ji Zhao Hui

Time: August 14, 2006

采访对象:姬朝晖张江信息产业集团部门经理)

采访时间:2006814

 

环境 environment surroundings 6(其中“环保” 1)

时间 time 5

客户 client 4

(开车) car drive 6

生活(过日子) live life 10

live 2

roosters hookers 4

工作 working 3

tired harder 3

SARS 2

开发 development 2

老外 foreigner 2

别墅 villa 1

家人 family 2

朋友 friends 2

能源 resources 1

文化 culture 2

小资情调 bourgeoisie sentiment 1

美国人 American 2

 

我在张江呆得最长的时候就是那年SARS的时候,我们五一回不了家, The longest period I’ve stayed in Zhangjiang is during the spread of SARS, when we could not go back in the Labor’s Day.

我们戏称这里是鸟不生蛋的地方。In our joke this is a place where even birds would not lay eggs.

客观上讲干活还是可以的。但是配套设施上还有一段距离的, Objectively it is not a bad plce for working, but still needs improvement as to the supporting facilities.

环境当然是好的,但是大家不能光看到环境这个关键词啊, Of course the environment is nice, but only it is not enough.

还有就是这边做开发不错的。 It’s not bad for research program,

但是说做商务如客户要到这边就是很麻烦的。but not right for business, for the clients have to take great trouble to come.

但是确实这边环境是越好,但有也有不好, The environment is indeed good here, but every coin has two sides.

就是在张江能激发你的工作和创造热情和享受惬意的生活。In Zhangjiang your working and creating passion would be inspired and you could enjoy a comfortable life.

那我能长在这里那肯定是好的了。It would be ideal for me to stay here for a long time.

但问题是,平常过日子,小孩上学这条件,氛围还是是不如城市设施。But the problem is, the facilities are still not as good as the urban ones as for everyday life and children’s education.

 

反正我觉得不能学老外,像我在开发区有很多专家组成员,Anyway we cannot follow the foreigners example. There are many expert group members in the development zone.

听他们说什么老外,多好的环境,多大的草坪啊,能经常开车来上班,回去后别墅。It is said that the foreigners enjoy wonderful surroundings and great, they drive to company and live in villas.

这种日子不是人人都能过的。我们决大多数还是要靠坐公共汽车上下班的。But this is not a life everyone can live. Most of us have to commute by bus.

我们员工中有汽车的还只是一部分, Only part of the employees own cars.

我个人的观点从环保角度来说。开车不是件好事情,油费还是很高的,对不? In my point of view, driving is not environmentally friendly. Plus the petrol is quite expensive, isn’t it?

为什么说有汽车生活就是好生活。谁都会知道这种的是好的。Does the car means good life? We all know that it’s convenient,

换另一种思维来讲,你不能美国人一样生活,but on the other way, you cannot live like the Americans do.

美国人才2-3亿人口就消耗了全球一半的能量。With a population of only 200 to 300 million, America consumes half of the global resources.

如果按那种算法,光上海市就会把中国能源50%给干掉了。这都是不可能的。In this way, Shanghai itself could use half of Chinas resources, which is impossible.

确实张江这个创业环境,政府的关注,这都是蛮不错的。The surrounding in Zhangjiang and government’s support for entrepreneurship is indeed good.

客观上讲,从现实,实际上讲,生活的便利性,作为工作地点是对的,可以的。Objectively, it is practically acceptable and convenient enough as a working place.

但是配套设施上还是要给张江提点意见的。 But its supporting facilities need to be improved yet.

我觉得工作的地点生活距离还是不要拉得太远。 I think the distance between the working zone and residential zone is too far.

像我的老家在成都,我们有个地方叫都江堰,In my hometown there is a place named Dujiang Weir.

上海我们相当与从成都开车都江堰上班。In Shanghai we commute through a distance as that between Chengdu and Dujiang Weir,

我现在在徐家汇,从时间上讲花的时间都差不多的,这在成都是不可想象的。for I live in Xujiahui and spend almost so much time, which is unimaginable in Chengdu.

你的很多时间都花在路上了,无论是跟家人,跟朋友沟通都有问题。You have to spend much time on road, which means communication problems with family and friends.

像我们这种行业,本来就属于IT, Like our industry, as part of IT industry,

有句话说,起得比早睡得比晚,干的活比牛,吃的比猪还差。 people say that we get up earlier than roosters and sleep later than hookers, work harder than oxen and eat worse than pigs.

在这里像我们的公司加班是常事,所以说干得比牛,吃得比猪差。In our company to work overtime is commonplace, i.e. work harder than oxen and eat worse than pigs.

起得比早睡得比那个还晚。 By getting up ealier than the roosters and sleep later than hookers.

上次我们去外地出差,有个同事11点钟睡觉4点钟起来干活,都是这样辛苦。I mean we are tired, like last time we went to other cities for business, one colleague slept at 11 p.m. and got up to work at 4 a.m.

所以肯定是希望把多点时间花在和家人在一起,这是从生活上来讲的。So certainly we want to spend more time with our family. This is the living aspect.

另外还是希望有些业余的文化生活,但上海这边就比较小资情调,我们都不是太那个。Then we hope there are some recreational cultural life. Shanghai is full of petty bourgeoisie sentiment, which is not for our taste.

还是和同事朋友之间进行有益的文化活动,但现在没有时间。 We need some meaningful cultural activities with colleagues and friends, but we have no time for them.

 

关键词

,

我觉得现实还是太。 I think it is too tired in life.

我觉得能抓得到的主动权更大些就好了, I feel it would be good if we could have more initiatives.

如有一个客户给我打电话,他在徐家汇,现在是4点钟, If a client call me. He lives in Xujiahui and now it is 4 p.m.

我要跑过去,要一个半小时,就是六点钟了,It takes an hour and a half to go there, making p.m.六点半他又要出去约会,这我就只有半个小时和他谈话, At half past 6 he has an appointment, leaving me only a half hour.

那我还能搞什么哪?基本上什么事情也谈不了。Then I almost can do nothing about it.

从见客户这方面来说还是在浦西比较好。 So as to see the client, I think Puxi is better.

像张江做生产基地确实比较好,但是做为生活基地,我总觉得应该随意,自如些。 Zhangjiang is a good place for manufacturing base, but for livng base I think it should be more comfortalbe and at ease.

 

采访对象:裴慧怡/Interviewed: Pei Hui Yi

采访对象:裴慧怡(张江信息产业集团职员)

采访时间:2006年8月14日

现代化 modernize 4

现代 modern modernity 7

浦东 Pudong 8

浦西 Puxi 8

old 10

房子 house 10

老房子 old house 8

邻居(邻里) neighbor 10

公寓 apartment 3

new 4

和睦 harmony 2

发展 development 1

家庭 family 2

时尚 trend 1

先进 advanced 1

对我来说,浦东发展是很快的,我们未曾预料的,For me,Pudongs(eastern Shanghai) development is too fast to be expected.

几年前,这里一片荒野,A few years ago it was all wilderness,

而几年过来,环境浦西更舒适,政府有独到的眼光, while now it has become more comfortable a place than Puxi(central Shanghai), owing to the insight of government.

医院学校都搬过来了,已经不好说这里不方便这句话了, It used to be inconvenient. But now we have hospitals and schools,

因为已经很现代化了,已进入现代化时代了,是很方便的,步伐很快。It has been modernized at a fast pace,

没有什么不方便,到哪都有地铁。and become quite convenient. The subway reaches everywhere.

我没来浦东住,是为了家庭的原因,I have not moved to Pudong due to my family.

我爱人孩子都在浦西工作读书,只有我做点牺牲了, My partner works and my child goes to school there in Puxi, so I have to make sacrifice.

确实浦东这里舒适,空气比浦西通畅,Indeed Pudong is more comfortable with fresher air than in Puxi.

浦西的房子都很紧凑,而浦东这里则很宽广,这方面确实占优, The houses in Puxi is congested, while Pudong has enough space which is its advantage.

以前人们说到了浦东就像到了乡下,现在没有这种感觉, People used to say that Pudong is like countryside, but now it has all changed.

浦东现代化的环境,有些地方比浦西还好, Pudong has modernized surroundings, and in some aspects is even better than Puxi.

浦西有很多老房子,浦东基本上没有了。In Puxi there are still many old houses, which you can hardly find in Pudong.

老房子令人怀旧,The old houses are filled with nostalgia.

另外由于现在房价很贵老房子卖出去, Because of the high price of housing, you have to sell the old one to afford a new one.

原来有周边很熟悉邻居,Thus you lose all the ex-neighbors whom you have known well,

当搬到地方,可能就不认识任何邻居了, but can hardly know any new ones when you move to new places.

上下班匆匆匆忙忙,周边邻居是谁也不知道, Everyday you go to work and come back in a rush, with no idea about your new neighbors.

老房子邻里的人们自然会为你看房子,他们知道你们在或离开了, In the old houses, neighbors naturally watch out for you. They know whether you are in or out.

陌生人过来他们会关注,邻里关心你们。They would be on guard when strangers come by. They care for you,

现代公寓里,这方面有欠缺。which is rare in the modern apartment,

新公寓里。大家来自不同的公司。互不了解,就不可能莫名其妙的接受对方,where people come from different companies, knowing little about each other and not being able to accept each other out of nothing.

而在老房子老邻居们有的是从上一辈人开始就做了邻居,知根知底,In the old houses, we are generations of neighbors and know each other so well,

我们有时外出时,会很信任的将钥匙交给邻居,让其转交给自己家人。that we would leave the key to them with full trust for our family when we are out.

新公寓里,我就不会这么做了, In the new apartment I would not do this.

浦西老房子老邻居,大家都怀旧,都不愿意搬走,In Puxi, the neighbors in old houses are all nostalgic and unwilling to move.

虽然设施旧了,差了,但是大家七拼八凑的呆在一起,有一种社会大家庭的感觉,Though the facilities are dated and worn, we still hang out together for a feeling of big family.

浦东现代化城市,人与人的关系,没有浦西老房子里的那种温馨感觉, Pudong is a modernized city, without the warm feeling of old houses in Puxi.

老房子能体会人们说的,远亲不如近邻。In the old houses, we can understand the old saying, A neighbor is dearer than a remote relative.

关键词:1是和睦和睦很重要。The first key word is harmony, which is important.

2是,现代时尚会过时的,而现代则是先进的。The second is modernity, for the trend comes and goes, but modernity stays advanced.

 

Interviewed: Pei Hui Yi

Time: August 14, 2006

采访对象:裴慧怡(张江信息产业集团职员)

采访时间:2006814

 

现代化 modernize 4

现代 modern modernity 7

浦东 Pudong 8

浦西 Puxi 8

old 10

房子 house 10

老房子 old house 8

邻居(邻里) neighbor 10

公寓 apartment 3

new 4

和睦 harmony 2

发展 development 1

家庭 family 2

时尚 trend 1

先进 advanced 1

 

 

对我来说,浦东发展是很快的,我们未曾预料的,For me,Pudong’s(eastern Shanghai) development is too fast to be expected.

几年前,这里一片荒野,A few years ago it was all wilderness,

而几年过来,环境浦西更舒适,政府有独到的眼光, while now it has become more comfortable a place than Puxi(central Shanghai), owing to the insight of government.

医院学校都搬过来了,已经不好说这里不方便这句话了, It used to be inconvenient. But now we have hospitals and schools,

因为已经很现代化了,已进入现代化时代了,是很方便的,步伐很快。It has been modernized at a fast pace,

没有什么不方便,到哪都有地铁。and become quite convenient. The subway reaches everywhere.

我没来浦东住,是为了家庭的原因,I have not moved to Pudong due to my family.

我爱人孩子都在浦西工作读书,只有我做点牺牲了, My partner works and my child goes to school there in Puxi, so I have to make sacrifice.

确实浦东这里舒适,空气比浦西通畅,Indeed Pudong is more comfortable with fresher air than in Puxi.

浦西的房子都很紧凑,而浦东这里则很宽广,这方面确实占优, The houses in Puxi is congested, while Pudong has enough space which is its advantage.

以前人们说到了浦东就像到了乡下,现在没有这种感觉, People used to say that Pudong is like countryside, but now it has all changed.

浦东现代化的环境,有些地方比浦西还好, Pudong has modernized surroundings, and in some aspects is even better than Puxi.

浦西有很多老房子,浦东基本上没有了。In Puxi there are still many old houses, which you can hardly find in Pudong.

老房子令人怀旧,The old houses are filled with nostalgia.

另外由于现在房价很贵老房子卖出去, Because of the high price of housing, you have to sell the old one to afford a new one.

原来有周边很熟悉邻居,Thus you lose all the ex-neighbors whom you have known well,

当搬到地方,可能就不认识任何邻居了, but can hardly know any new ones when you move to new places.

上下班匆匆匆忙忙,周边邻居是谁也不知道, Everyday you go to work and come back in a rush, with no idea about your new neighbors.

老房子邻里的人们自然会为你看房子,他们知道你们在或离开了, In the old houses, neighbors naturally watch out for you. They know whether you are in or out.

陌生人过来他们会关注,邻里关心你们。They would be on guard when strangers come by. They care for you,

现代公寓里,这方面有欠缺。which is rare in the modern apartment,

新公寓里。大家来自不同的公司。互不了解,就不可能莫名其妙的接受对方,where people come from different companies, knowing little about each other and not being able to accept each other out of nothing.

而在老房子老邻居们有的是从上一辈人开始就做了邻居,知根知底,In the old houses, we are generations of neighbors and know each other so well,

我们有时外出时,会很信任的将钥匙交给邻居,让其转交给自己家人。that we would leave the key to them with full trust for our family when we are out.

新公寓里,我就不会这么做了, In the new apartment I would not do this.

浦西老房子老邻居,大家都怀旧,都不愿意搬走,In Puxi, the neighbors in old houses are all nostalgic and unwilling to move.

虽然设施旧了,差了,但是大家七拼八凑的呆在一起,有一种社会大家庭的感觉,Though the facilities are dated and worn, we still hang out together for a feeling of big family.

浦东现代化城市,人与人的关系,没有浦西老房子里的那种温馨感觉, Pudong is a modernized city, without the warm feeling of old houses in Puxi.

老房子能体会人们说的,远亲不如近邻。In the old houses, we can understand the old saying, ‘A neighbor is dearer than a remote relative.’

 

关键词:1是和睦和睦很重要。The first key word is harmony, which is important.

2是,现代时尚会过时的,而现代则是先进的。The second is modernity, for the trend comes and goes, but modernity stays advanced.

 

 

采访对象:郑思予/Interviewed: Zheng Si Yu

采访对象:郑思予(张江信息产业集团管理人员)

采访时间:2006年8月14

(居)住 live living dwell 6

生活 live living 3

条件 condition 3

交通 transportation traffic 4

娱乐 recreation entertainment 4

方便 便利 convenience convenient easily 7

时间 time 2

环境 envirnoment surrounding 2

员工 employee 2

购物 shopping 1

休闲 leisure 2

科技 science and technology 2

智慧 intelligence wise 2

学校 school 2

医院 hospital 2

吃饭 restuarant 2

我觉得,很多事情和时间有关, I think many things change with time.

三年前,我刚到张江来时,这里人比较少, When I came three year ago, there were not many people here.

现在不仅人多了,各方面的和居住有关的条件也有了.Now the population increases, together with all kinds of facilities for living condition,

比如学校,医院,吃饭,娱乐的地方也比较多了,like schools, hospitals, restaurants and recreation places.

我觉得在张江居住,是蛮不错的选择, I think Zhangjiang is a quite nice place to live.

张江在地段上靠近金桥开发区,离川沙,南汇也比较近, It’s around the Jinqiao development zone, and not far from Chuansha and Nanhui.

是这一带的一个中心,去哪都方便, It is a center of this district, and we can go everywhere easily.

在这里工作,环境不错,给人以清新,自然的感觉, To work here, the envirnoment is refreshing.

现在各大超市娱乐也都齐全了. Now we have all the supermarkets and recreation places.

理想居住, An ideal dwelling place,

需要交通便利, needs convenient transportation,

医疗设施建设齐全,有各大超市, enough medical facilities, supermarkets,

还要方便于出门购物,出门娱乐和出门做任何事情,要便利,要四通八达, and convenience for shopping, entertainment and any other outings.

上班就不一定需要太多的条件了,Working place needs much less.

主要的是,交通一定要便利发达,Primarily, easy transportation.

我们公司有班车,离地铁也不算太远,2公里左右, We have company bus, and not far from the subway stop, only 2 kilos,

员工来说是方便的,which is convenient for the employees.

虽然很多员工浦西,但都接近交通线,都算方便的. Though many of them live in Puxi, they are not far from the traffic line and thus convenient.

生活条件的主要要求就是,环境优雅,氛围要好, The main condition demanded for living is a graceful surrounding, nice ambience.

娱乐交通做得到位些,这样居住起来心情会比较好.With decent recreation and transportation facilities, we would be happier to live in.

张江, 关键词, 科技, 智慧, 休闲。zhangjiang key words: science and technology, intelligence and leisure.

张江是科技园区,Zhangjiang is a hi-tech zone.

在这里工作生活的人,富有智慧,头脑,也不乏休闲的氛围.People work or live here are wise enough to make an easy ambience,

这里会给居住带来一种清新独特的感觉,they bring the residence a refreshing feel.

浦西的感觉就不同,太繁杂,Puxi(central Shanghai) is totally different. It’s too crowded.

虽然那里的人们在星级写字楼里上班,人员流动多,Although they work in fancy buildings and have a highly flowing staff.

在那里工作或许令人觉得时尚一些.Perhaps it’s more trendy to work over there.

但是我们在这边呆的时间长了,向往那边的生活, But we have stay here for such a long time that we are not jealous of that.

 

Interviewed: Zheng Si Yu

Time: August 14, 2006

采访对象:郑思予(张江信息产业集团管理人员)

采访时间:2006年8月14

() live living dwell 6

生活 live living 3

条件 condition 3

交通 transportation traffic 4

娱乐 recreation entertainment 4

方便 便利 convenience convenient easily 7

时间 time 2

环境 envirnoment surrounding 2

员工 employee 2

购物 shopping 1

休闲 leisure 2

科技 science and technology 2

智慧 intelligence wise 2

学校 school 2

医院 hospital 2

吃饭 restuarant 2

 

 

我觉得,很多事情和时间有关, I think many things change with time.

三年前,我刚到张江来时,这里人比较少, When I came three year ago, there were not many people here.

现在不仅人多了,各方面的和居住有关的条件也有了.Now the population increases, together with all kinds of facilities for living condition,

比如学校,医院,吃饭,娱乐的地方也比较多了,like schools, hospitals, restaurants and recreation places.

我觉得在张江居住,是蛮不错的选择, I think Zhangjiang is a quite nice place to live.

张江在地段上靠近金桥开发区,离川沙,南汇也比较近, Its around the Jinqiao development zone, and not far from Chuansha and Nanhui.

是这一带的一个中心,去哪都方便, It is a center of this district, and we can go everywhere easily.

在这里工作,环境不错,给人以清新,自然的感觉, To work here, the envirnoment is refreshing.

现在各大超市娱乐也都齐全了. Now we have all the supermarkets and recreation places.

理想居住, An ideal dwelling place,

需要交通便利, needs convenient transportation,

医疗设施建设齐全,有各大超市, enough medical facilities, supermarkets,

还要方便于出门购物,出门娱乐和出门做任何事情,要便利,要四通八达, and convenience for shopping, entertainment and any other outings.

上班就不一定需要太多的条件了,Working place needs much less.

主要的是,交通一定要便利发达,Primarily, easy transportation.

我们公司有班车,离地铁也不算太远,2公里左右, We have company bus, and not far from the subway stop, only 2 kilos,

员工来说是方便的,which is convenient for the employees.

虽然很多员工浦西,但都接近交通线,都算方便的. Though many of them live in Puxi, they are not far from the traffic line and thus convenient.

生活条件的主要要求就是,环境优雅,氛围要好, The main condition demanded for living is a graceful surrounding, nice ambience.

娱乐交通做得到位些,这样居住起来心情会比较好.With decent recreation and transportation facilities, we would be happier to live in.

张江, 关键词, 科技, 智慧, 休闲。zhangjiang key words: science and technology, intelligence and leisure.

张江是科技园区,Zhangjiang is a hi-tech zone.

在这里工作生活的人,富有智慧,头脑,也不乏休闲的氛围.People work or live here are wise enough to make an easy ambience,

这里会给居住带来一种清新独特的感觉,they bring the residence a refreshing feel.

浦西的感觉就不同,太繁杂,Puxi(central Shanghai) is totally different. Its too crowded.

虽然那里的人们在星级写字楼里上班,人员流动多,Although they work in fancy buildings and have a highly flowing staff.

在那里工作或许令人觉得时尚一些.Perhaps its more trendy to work over there.

但是我们在这边呆的时间长了,向往那边的生活, But we have stay here for such a long time that we are not jealous of that.

采访对象:姚宇/Interviewed: Yao Yu

采访对象:姚宇(张江某广告公司设计师)

采访时间:2006年8月18日

发展 develop development 9

气氛 ambience 5

高科技 hi-tech 3

园区 garden zone 5

科技 technology technological 10

产业 industry business 6

创意产业 creative industry 3

感觉 feeling felt 3

文化 culture 9

文化产业 culture business 1

生活 life 6

busy 2

行业 industry 2

都市 metropolitan 2

公交 bus 1

IT行业 IT industry 1

白领 white-collar 1

特色 characteristics 1

规划 layout 1

高端 high-end 1

自动化 automatic 1

电子化 electronic 1

科技化 scientific 1

人性化 humanized 1

理想(化) ideal 2

知识 knowledegs 1

环境 surroundings 1

家居 home 1

田园风光 pastoral 2

刚来张江时,给我总体的感觉来说,My first feeling when I just came here,

就是早上很,大量的人在等班车, was its busy morning.Lots of people were waiting for the bus.

工作的节奏气氛很强烈,很有都市工作的气氛。Here is the tense working ambience,quite metropolitan.

随后当我在张江工作了一段时间,后来对张江的感觉,After a period of working here, I felt something else.

就是在张江这里的餐饮等方面行业,都集中在地铁站附近,Restaurants in Zhangjiang are centered near the subway station,

或是在产业园区内,or in the industry garden.

交通不方便啦,只有几趟公交车,Its transportation is inconvenient with only a few bus routes.

大部分来张江工作的人,都是IT行业的领导和白领,Most of the people working here are leaders or white-collar employees of IT industry,

都拥有自己的交通工具,这也是张江的一大特色,who have their own cars, which is one of the characteristics of Zhangjiang,

车比较多,人也比较繁,with abundant vehicles and crowded people.

我来张江后,对张江的感觉,基本上很满意。Basically I am satisfied since I came here,

特别是对园区规划气氛,整体的建设,以及文化。 especially with its zone layout, ambience and the overall construstion and culture.

我们是做文化产业的,We do culture business.

我们中国艺术设计联盟,整体上是创意产业的门户, Our China Art Design Union is basically the portal of creative industry.

主要是要对文化各个方面的气氛进行感受,Primarily we sense various aspects of cultural ambience.

创意产业文化基地,在张江建立以后,Since the establishment of the creative industry culture base,

文化气氛十分强烈,the cultural ambience is getting stronger.

周围也建立了文化素养较高的基地,如美院电影学院,Around have been built bases with higher cultural accomplishment like the Art College and the Film College,

整个文化科技素质都提高了,raising the overall cultural and technological quality

很适合我们创意产业的精神,which just fits our concept of creative industry.

文化加科学,一个很明确的整体的发展目标Culture and science make an explicit target of development as a whole.

我对生活理想化想象,希望今后生活自动化电子化、更科技化人性化,My imagination of the ideal life is a more automatic, electronic, scientific and humanized one,

自己拥有一些站在科技高端尖端情况下的生活设施,with some latest hi-tech life facilities

比如说家居环境,用一些最科技,最新的产品来美化,完善自己的生活。like the home surroundings, decorated and improved with the latest technology and products.

社会是一个机械化的大熔炉, The society is an automatic melting pot.

社会在不断发展,我们自身也在不断进步, With its consistant development, we are developing ourselves, too.

发展是肯定的目标, Development is the target for sure,

发展,就会被社会和历史淘汰, or we would be  washed out.

张江是立足于IT高科技园区的理念。Zhangjiang is based on the idea of IT hi-tech zone.

我希望张江今后的发展多元化多极化的。I hope its development be multipolized,

不光在科技领域,也可以在其他领域进行尝试,one in technological area as well as many others.

尝试将张江建设成文化科技各方面知识溶和在一起的园区, The attempt to built a zone involving all the knowledegs including culture and technology,

这更利于张江的发展。would be more profer for it.

田园风光似的生活不是年轻人的生活理想,The pastoral life is not ideal for the young,

年轻人应该充分发挥积极性,充分溶入社会,推动社会发展,who should make full use of their energy and develop our socity.

如果年纪稍长,也经历了自身的发展,生活也已精彩过了,Those senior ones who have experienced enough,

可以考虑过一种安逸的,田园风光似的生活。could think about an easy pastoral life.

推动社会发展的力量是科技。 Science and technology is the force to make society develop forward.

张江,高科技产业的快车。Zhangjiang, an express train of hi-tech industry,

高科技,高精尖技术的发源地。 a cradle of hi-tech and advanced technology.

 

Interviewed: Yao Yu

Time: August 18, 2006

采访对象:姚宇(张江某广告公司设计师)

采访时间:2006818

 

发展 develop development 9

气氛 ambience 5

高科技 hi-tech 3

园区 garden zone 5

科技 technology technological 10

产业 industry business 6

创意产业 creative industry 3

感觉 feeling felt 3

文化 culture 9

文化产业 culture business 1

生活 life 6

busy 2

行业 industry 2

都市 metropolitan 2

公交 bus 1

IT行业 IT industry 1

白领 white-collar 1

特色 characteristics 1

规划 layout 1

高端 high-end 1

自动化 automatic 1

电子化 electronic 1

科技化 scientific 1

人性化 humanized 1

理想 ideal 2

知识 knowledegs 1

环境 surroundings 1

家居 home 1

田园风光 pastoral 2

 

 

 

刚来张江时,给我总体的感觉来说,My first feeling when I just came here,

就是早上很,大量的人在等班车, was its busy morning.Lots of people were waiting for the bus.

工作的节奏气氛很强烈,很有都市工作的气氛。Here is the tense working ambience,quite metropolitan.

随后当我在张江工作了一段时间,后来对张江的感觉,After a period of working here, I felt something else.

就是在张江这里的餐饮等方面行业,都集中在地铁站附近,Restaurants in Zhangjiang are centered near the subway station,

或是在产业园区内,or in the industry garden.

交通不方便啦,只有几趟公交车,Its transportation is inconvenient with only a few bus routes.

大部分来张江工作的人,都是IT行业的领导和白领,Most of the people working here are leaders or white-collar employees of IT industry,

都拥有自己的交通工具,这也是张江的一大特色,who have their own cars, which is one of the characteristics of Zhangjiang,

车比较多,人也比较繁,with abundant vehicles and crowded people.

我来张江后,对张江的感觉,基本上很满意。Basically I am satisfied since I came here,

特别是对园区规划气氛,整体的建设,以及文化。 especially with its zone layout, ambience and the overall construstion and culture.

我们是做文化产业的,We do culture business.

我们中国艺术设计联盟,整体上是创意产业的门户, Our China Art Design Union is basically the portal of creative industry.

主要是要对文化各个方面的气氛进行感受,Primarily we sense various aspects of cultural ambience.

创意产业文化基地,在张江建立以后,Since the establishment of the creative industry culture base,

文化气氛十分强烈,the cultural ambience is getting stronger.

周围也建立了文化素养较高的基地,如美院电影学院,Around have been built bases with higher cultural accomplishment like the Art College and the Film College,

整个文化科技素质都提高了,raising the overall cultural and technological quality

很适合我们创意产业的精神,which just fits our concept of creative industry.

文化加科学,一个很明确的整体的发展目标Culture and science make an explicit target of development as a whole.

 

我对生活理想化想象,希望今后生活自动化电子化、更科技化人性化,My imagination of the ideal life is a more automatic, electronic, scientific and humanized one,

自己拥有一些站在科技高端尖端情况下的生活设施,with some latest hi-tech life facilities

比如说家居环境,用一些最科技,最新的产品来美化,完善自己的生活。like the home surroundings, decorated and improved with the latest technology and products.

 

 

社会是一个机械化的大熔炉, The society is an automatic melting pot.

社会在不断发展,我们自身也在不断进步, With its consistant development, we are developing ourselves, too.

发展是肯定的目标, Development is the target for sure,

发展,就会被社会和历史淘汰, or we would be  washed out.

张江是立足于IT高科技园区的理念。Zhangjiang is based on the idea of IT hi-tech zone.

我希望张江今后的发展多元化多极化的。I hope its development be multipolized,

不光在科技领域,也可以在其他领域进行尝试,one in technological area as well as many others.

尝试将张江建设成文化科技各方面知识溶和在一起的园区, The attempt to built a zone involving all the knowledegs including culture and technology,

这更利于张江的发展。would be more profer for it.

田园风光似的生活不是年轻人的生活理想,The pastoral life is not ideal for the young,

年轻人应该充分发挥积极性,充分溶入社会,推动社会发展,who should make full use of their energy and develop our socity.

如果年纪稍长,也经历了自身的发展,生活也已精彩过了,Those senior ones who have experienced enough,

可以考虑过一种安逸的,田园风光似的生活。could think about an easy pastoral life.

 

推动社会发展的力量是科技。 Science and technology is the force to make society develop forward.

张江,高科技产业的快车。Zhangjiang, an express train of hi-tech industry,

高科技,高精尖技术的发源地。 a cradle of hi-tech and advanced technology.

 

采访对象:胡薇/Interviewed: Hu Wei

采访对象:胡薇(张江某设计公司设计师)

采访时间:2006年8月17日

 

亲戚 relatives 3

朋友 friends 3

艺术 art artistic 7

员工 employee 3

政策 policy 4

政策优惠 preferential policies 3

car 7

创意 creative 4

eat food 5

园区 park 5

高科技园 Hi-tech Park 3

地铁 subway metro 6

 

发展 development 1

技术 technical 2

上海人 native Shanghai citizen 2

浦西 Puxi(central Shanghai) 4

人气 popularity 1

大学 universities 1

公交 bus 2

宣传(片) publicizing films 1

节奏 tempo 1

商业感觉 commercial sense 1

别墅 villa 1

圈子(朋友圈) circle 2

关系 related 1

人才 gifted 2

房租补贴 rent allowance 1

特色 characteristics 1

品牌 brand 1

fast 2

 

我在张江工作是过完年一月份开始的, I started my work in Zhangjiang since January, after the Spring Festival.

我是上海人,Though I am a native Shanghai citizen,

对张江的发展我是到了这里才知道的,I had had no idea of its development until I came here.

以前我是在地铁里知道有一个叫张江高科技园的站点, All I had known is merely a subway stop named Zhangjiang Hi-tech Park.

而且只知道张江是高科技园区,I had only known Zhangjiang is a hi-tech park,

但具体张江是赶什么的我也从没来过,As to what exactly it is for I had not known for I had never been here.

不来这里工作就不会到这里来。I would’t have be here if I had not worked here.

虽然我自己是上海人,although I am a native.

在张江我觉得空气比较好,In Zhangjiang the air is quite fresh.

之间的间距比较大,The distance between buildings are long.

如果是浦西看见前面有一栋楼,大概两分钟就能走到,In Puxi(central Shanghai) if you see a building in front of you, it usually takes a two-minute walk,

而在张江可能要走十分钟才能走到,while in Zhangjiang it could take you ten minutes,

这边感觉比较开阔一点,giving people an open view.

然后就是觉得地面的灰尘比较少,没什么纸屑,比较干净。The ground is clean with little dust or rubbish.

但是就觉得人气还不够旺,But you feel like here should be more popularity.

然后就是觉得大学之间的衔接比较多,The connection route between universities are abundant.

比较重视比如像大桥五号六号Bridge No.5 and No.6 are given emphasis.

五号是连复旦六号是连交大的。The former connects to Fudan University and the latter to Shanghai Jiao Tong University.

我觉得可能还是要多开发一些公交线路,I feel like there should be more bus routes,

浦西的人能多往张江来。encouraging more people come from Puxi.

然后张江还可以再做一些资料片宣传片,In addition, Zhangjiang needs more documentaries and publicizing films,

介绍一下张江有那些基地。to introduce the bases in it.

其实,不来张江的话,对张江是有创意文化这个概念并不是很清楚的,Actually those who have never been here know little about the concept of creative culture in Zhangjiang.

只知道张江有生物资料这块基地,but the base of bio resources.

慢慢是正大九城的兴起才知道张江有游戏产业。The e-game industry became known with the development of Zhengda City 9.

我们是做电子杂志的,We do e-magazine,

就是做文化网络出版,i.e the online cultural publishment.

早前我在出版社工作过,I used to word in a publishing house,

所以这份工作对我来说等于是把我前面两份工作的经验结合起来。so this job is a combination of my previous two working experiences.

和以前比起来,应该说有一个技术门槛,是要有技术支持的,Compared with the previous ones, it needs a technical support.

我觉得这里的节奏浦西慢很多,I feel the tempo here is much slower than that in Puxi,

不像在人民广场和淮海路,different from places like the People’s Square and the Huaihai Street,

人们的步伐都是那么的,感觉什么事都急匆匆的,where people walk at a fast pace and seem always in a rush,

特别我以前的广告公司在市中心,especially downtown, where my ex ads company lies.

让人感觉城市的速度很。You can feel the high speed of the city.

但在这里我觉得有种校园的氛围,But here is a phonomenon of campus.

有种回到校园的感觉,I feel like going back to school.

而且这附近的学校也比较多,With quite a few schools nearby,

商业的感觉还不是特别强。its commercial sense is not that strong,

应该说给人一种比较缓慢的感觉,giving people a feel of slowness.

如果是有子的话,能住在这里还是蛮的,It would be quite good to live here with a car.

如果有钱的话在这里买别墅还可以,or if one is rich enough to afford a villa.

比如说周末住一下,但不大可能会搬过来,One can spend the weekends here, but probably not move here,

因为一般住的话和圈子关系,for living place is related with one’s circle.

比如我要搬新家,也要离我原来的居住地比较近,If I move to a new place, it would not be far away from the previous one,

和我的家人与亲戚朋友要比较近。from my family, relatives and friends.

如果住的很远,和他们的沟通就不会太方便。If I live far away, it would be difficult to communicate them.

好像外地来的人,他们也会是找一个适合他们朋友圈的地方,The non-natives also find the place proper for their group of friends,

除非在张江至少有一两个朋友,或是有亲戚在这里,unless they have at least one or two friends or relatives here.

基本上是以工作为主的。Basically most people come to work.

因为我来上班是搭的,我有邻居在易贝上班,所以我是搭他的上班,

I come by car of my neighbour, who works in E-bay.

如果是搭公交和做地铁就比较麻烦,It would be troublesome to take bus or subway,

因为我家在大华那里,for I live in Dahua,

过来要换一辆再换地铁这个路途上单程就要花一个半小时,It takes an hour and a half to transfer the bus and then the subway,

来回要三个小时。which means 3 hours per day.

在路上花很长的时间,特别在地铁里花很长时间, To spent such a long time,especialy in the subway,

对我来说是不大好忍受的,应该说是比较痛苦的。is unbearable for me, a pain indeed.

如果有,我情愿走地面上的,因为在地面上可以看到外面的风景。I prefer to go on the ground if I have a car, for the view up there.

我觉得在张江上班能够呼吸到比较好的空气,I feel in Zhangjiang we have fresh air.

而且这里绿化也比较好,眼睛也比较舒服。Eyes feel good with the green belts here.

总的来说,张江离我们的生活区太远,In a word, Zhangjiang is too far from our living place.

刚来的时候感觉离开了上海来这里工作,At the beginning I felt like I left Shanghai to work here.

就好像到了苏州这样的地方上班,上海的影子不太多。as if I was working in a place like Suzhou, with little Shanghai personality in it.

但在这里工作很理想到是没有的,But it’s not really ideal to work here.

因为张江的确有很多政府的支持,Although it has the support from government,

就是给这些企业一些比较好的优惠政策来吸引他们过来。which gives companies preferential policies to attract them,

但问题是如果很多配套设施没有跟上的话就不好了,it is still a problem without supporting facilities.

从公司老板来说,他们是得到好处的,有房租补贴,能得到优惠政策。The employers are given rent allowance and preferential policies,

但对于招聘员工来说条件并不是很好的。but for employees it is not that good.

一些稍微好一点的人才如果看到特别是公司没有的话就不太能招到好的人才,Some gifted applicants would not come without company regular buses.

所以对于招人来说还是有点限制的,So it is a restriction for employment,

这肯定是跟公司有关了。and of course has an effect on the company.

如果公司能给员工一些比如交通上的福利政策那还可以,It could be acceptable if the employees are given welfare commuting policy.

如果没有,而是硬生生的让浦西的人来上班,Without which, one who comes from Puxi,

每天要花三个小时在路上的确是很辛苦的。has to spend 3 hours in commuting which is such a pain.

我觉得政府的优惠政策最好能给到每一个员工的身上,I think the preferential policies should be applied to each employee.

 

我觉得这里的园林的感觉还不错,I feel the garden here is nice,

但是要上升到艺术的话就——,while as to the art,

好像在张江没有看到什么艺术的气息,I do not feel much art here.

我看到的只有张江的政府大楼还有浦东软件园区吧,那里的几栋楼做的还可以,Only a few building like its government building and some in the Pudong software park are not bad.

而我们这里的就没有什么特色了。There is little characteristics here.

张江的广告也很少,没什么户外广告,Not many ads here, nor the outdoor ones.

但从另外一个角度来说他没有被广告污染,这一点比较好。On one side it has not yet been contaminated by the ads, which is good,

如果是从艺术创意来讲,就如从地铁下来,but from the view of artistic creativity, down from the metro,

没有给人一个这里是创意艺术园区,这个感觉还没有。you would feel little of a park of creative art.

这里只能给人感觉离城市比较远,然后空气比较好,People only feel it far from city with fresh air,

要上升到艺术创意这个概念还需要有些改进。and more needs to be done to elevate it to the concept of artistic creativity.

如果说是科技园区的话那还可以理解,Call it a hi-tech park is acceptable,

但要说是艺术园区好像还没这个概念。but there is nothing like a artistic park.

 

第一我觉得空气比较好,第二需要提高他的艺术品牌,First the air is good, and secondly the art brand needs to be elevated.

还有就是张江的一些附加值,比如说他的交通还有,Then the add-ons, like the transportation and the food here,

因为我们在这里工作中午很难到东西,for we have little to eat at working noon.

我们这里有一句话Here we have a saying,

“你在市中心上班,肚子饿了可以到东西, ‘If you work downtown, you can eat when you are hungry,

在张江肚子饿了是利于减肥”。while in Zhangjiang you are on diet.’

因为有钱也买不到东西,for money can not buy food here.

点东西要走很远,要到地铁站,You have to walk to the subway stop to find foods,

我们这里走过去要二十分钟的路程,which takes us twenty minutes from here.

我们都懒的走这些路了,基本上就这样了。Usually we are too lazy and just let it be.

 

Interviewed: Hu Wei

Time: Evening, August 17, 2006

采访对象:胡薇张江某设计公司设计师)

采访时间:2006817

 

亲戚 relatives 3

朋友 friends 3

艺术 art artistic 7

员工 employee 3

政策 policy 4

政策优惠 preferential policies 3

car 7

创意 creative 4

eat food 5

园区 park 5

高科技园 Hi-tech Park 3

地铁 subway metro 6

 

发展 development 1

技术 technical 2

上海人 native Shanghai citizen 2

浦西 Puxi(central Shanghai) 4

人气 popularity 1

大学 universities 1

公交 bus 2

宣传() publicizing films 1

节奏 tempo 1

商业感觉 commercial sense 1

别墅 villa 1

圈子(朋友圈) circle 2

关系 related 1

人才 gifted 2

房租补贴 rent allowance 1

特色 characteristics 1

品牌 brand 1

fast 2

 

我在张江工作是过完年一月份开始的, I started my work in Zhangjiang since January, after the Spring Festival.

我是上海人,Though I am a native Shanghai citizen,

对张江的发展我是到了这里才知道的,I had had no idea of its development until I came here.

以前我是在地铁里知道有一个叫张江高科技园的站点, All I had known is merely a subway stop named Zhangjiang Hi-tech Park.

而且只知道张江是高科技园区,I had only known Zhangjiang is a hi-tech park,

但具体张江是赶什么的我也从没来过,As to what exactly it is for I had not known for I had never been here.

不来这里工作就不会到这里来。I would’t have be here if I had not worked here.

虽然我自己是上海人,although I am a native.

在张江我觉得空气比较好,In Zhangjiang the air is quite fresh.

之间的间距比较大,The distance between buildings are long.

如果是浦西看见前面有一栋楼,大概两分钟就能走到,In Puxi(central Shanghai) if you see a building in front of you, it usually takes a two-minute walk,

而在张江可能要走十分钟才能走到,while in Zhangjiang it could take you ten minutes,

这边感觉比较开阔一点,giving people an open view.

然后就是觉得地面的灰尘比较少,没什么纸屑,比较干净。The ground is clean with little dust or rubbish.

但是就觉得人气还不够旺,But you feel like here should be more popularity.

然后就是觉得大学之间的衔接比较多,The connection route between universities are abundant.

比较重视比如像大桥五号六号Bridge No.5 and No.6 are given emphasis.

五号是连复旦六号是连交大的。The former connects to Fudan University and the latter to Shanghai Jiao Tong University.

我觉得可能还是要多开发一些公交线路,I feel like there should be more bus routes,

浦西的人能多往张江来。encouraging more people come from Puxi.

然后张江还可以再做一些资料片宣传片,In addition, Zhangjiang needs more documentaries and publicizing films,

介绍一下张江有那些基地。to introduce the bases in it.

其实,不来张江的话,对张江是有创意文化这个概念并不是很清楚的,Actually those who have never been here know little about the concept of creative culture in Zhangjiang.

只知道张江有生物资料这块基地,but the base of bio resources.

慢慢是正大九城的兴起才知道张江有游戏产业。The e-game industry became known with the development of Zhengda City 9.

我们是做电子杂志的,We do e-magazine,

就是做文化网络出版,i.e the online cultural publishment.

早前我在出版社工作过,I used to word in a publishing house,

所以这份工作对我来说等于是把我前面两份工作的经验结合起来。so this job is a combination of my previous two working experiences.

和以前比起来,应该说有一个技术门槛,是要有技术支持的,Compared with the previous ones, it needs a technical support.

我觉得这里的节奏浦西很多,I feel the tempo here is much slower than that in Puxi,

不像在人民广场和淮海路,different from places like the People’s Square and the Huaihai Street,

人们的步伐都是那么的,感觉什么事都急匆匆的,where people walk at a fast pace and seem always in a rush,

特别我以前的广告公司在市中心,especially downtown, where my ex ads company lies.

让人感觉城市的速度很。You can feel the high speed of the city.

但在这里我觉得有种校园的氛围,But here is a phonomenon of campus.

有种回到校园的感觉,I feel like going back to school.

而且这附近的学校也比较多,With quite a few schools nearby,

商业感觉还不是特别强。its commercial sense is not that strong,

应该说给人一种比较缓慢的感觉,giving people a feel of slowness.

如果是有子的话,能住在这里还是蛮的,It would be quite good to live here with a car.

如果有钱的话在这里买别墅还可以,or if one is rich enough to afford a villa.

比如说周末住一下,但不大可能会搬过来,One can spend the weekends here, but probably not move here,

因为一般住的话和圈子关系,for living place is related with one’s circle.

比如我要搬新家,也要离我原来的居住地比较近,If I move to a new place, it would not be far away from the previous one,

和我的家人与亲戚朋友要比较近。from my family, relatives and friends.

如果住的很远,和他们的沟通就不会太方便。If I live far away, it would be difficult to communicate them.

好像外地来的人,他们也会是找一个适合他们朋友圈的地方,The non-natives also find the place proper for their group of friends,

除非在张江至少有一两个朋友,或是有亲戚在这里,unless they have at least one or two friends or relatives here.

基本上是以工作为主的。Basically most people come to work.

因为我来上班是搭的,我有邻居在易贝上班,所以我是搭他的上班,

I come by car of my neighbour, who works in E-bay.

如果是搭公交和做地铁就比较麻烦,It would be troublesome to take bus or subway,

因为我家在大华那里,for I live in Dahua,

过来要换一辆再换地铁这个路途上单程就要花一个半小时,It takes an hour and a half to transfer the bus and then the subway,

来回要三个小时。which means 3 hours per day.

在路上花很长的时间,特别在地铁里花很长时间, To spent such a long time,especialy in the subway,

对我来说是不大好忍受的,应该说是比较痛苦的。is unbearable for me, a pain indeed.

如果有,我情愿走地面上的,因为在地面上可以看到外面的风景。I prefer to go on the ground if I have a car, for the view up there.

我觉得在张江上班能够呼吸到比较好的空气,I feel in Zhangjiang we have fresh air.

而且这里绿化也比较好,眼睛也比较舒服。Eyes feel good with the green belts here.

总的来说,张江离我们的生活区太远,In a word, Zhangjiang is too far from our living place.

刚来的时候感觉离开了上海来这里工作,At the beginning I felt like I left Shanghai to work here.

就好像到了苏州这样的地方上班,上海的影子不太多。as if I was working in a place like Suzhou, with little Shanghai personality in it.

但在这里工作很理想到是没有的,But it’s not really ideal to work here.

因为张江的确有很多政府的支持,Although it has the support from government,

就是给这些企业一些比较好的优惠政策来吸引他们过来。which gives companies preferential policies to attract them,

但问题是如果很多配套设施没有跟上的话就不好了,it is still a problem without supporting facilities.

从公司老板来说,他们是得到好处的,有房租补贴,能得到优惠政策。The employers are given rent allowance and preferential policies,

但对于招聘员工来说条件并不是很好的。but for employees it is not that good.

一些稍微好一点的人才如果看到特别是公司没有的话就不太能招到好的人才,Some gifted applicants would not come without company regular buses.

所以对于招人来说还是有点限制的,So it is a restriction for employment,

这肯定是跟公司有关了。and of course has an effect on the company.

如果公司能给员工一些比如交通上的福利政策那还可以,It could be acceptable if the employees are given welfare commuting policy.

如果没有,而是硬生生的让浦西的人来上班,Without which, one who comes from Puxi,

每天要花三个小时在路上的确是很辛苦的。has to spend 3 hours in commuting which is such a pain.

我觉得政府的优惠政策最好能给到每一个员工的身上,I think the preferential policies should be applied to each employee.

 

我觉得这里的园林的感觉还不错,I feel the garden here is nice,

但是要上升到艺术的话就——,while as to the art,

好像在张江没有看到什么艺术的气息,I do not feel much art here.

我看到的只有张江的政府大楼还有浦东软件园区吧,那里的几栋楼做的还可以,Only a few building like its government building and some in the Pudong software park are not bad.

而我们这里的就没有什么特色了。There is little characteristics here.

张江的广告也很少,没什么户外广告,Not many ads here, nor the outdoor ones.

但从另外一个角度来说他没有被广告污染,这一点比较好。On one side it has not yet been contaminated by the ads, which is good,

如果是从艺术创意来讲,就如从地铁下来,but from the view of artistic creativity, down from the metro,

没有给人一个这里是创意艺术园区,这个感觉还没有。you would feel little of a park of creative art.

这里只能给人感觉离城市比较远,然后空气比较好,People only feel it far from city with fresh air,

要上升到艺术创意这个概念还需要有些改进。and more needs to be done to elevate it to the concept of artistic creativity.

如果说是科技园区的话那还可以理解,Call it a hi-tech park is acceptable,

但要说是艺术园区好像还没这个概念。but there is nothing like a artistic park.

 

第一我觉得空气比较好,第二需要提高他的艺术品牌,First the air is good, and secondly the art brand needs to be elevated.

还有就是张江的一些附加值,比如说他的交通还有,Then the add-ons, like the transportation and the food here,

因为我们在这里工作中午很难到东西,for we have little to eat at working noon.

我们这里有一句话Here we have a saying,

“你在市中心上班,肚子饿了可以到东西, ‘If you work downtown, you can eat when you are hungry,

在张江肚子饿了是利于减肥”。while in Zhangjiang you are on diet.’

因为有钱也买不到东西,for money can not buy food here.

点东西要走很远,要到地铁站,You have to walk to the subway stop to find foods,

我们这里走过去要二十分钟的路程,which takes us twenty minutes from here.

我们都懒的走这些路了,基本上就这样了。Usually we are too lazy and just let it be.

 

采访对象:秦晋/Interviewed: Qin Jin

采访对象:秦晋(张江某IT公司职员)

采访时间:2006年8月16日

生活(气息) (sense of)living life 6

公司 company 7

do make 10

商业 business 3

far remote 6

new 3

car 3

创业 entrepreneurship 3

按摩 massage 1

做脸 facial 1

打扮 dress 2

国际 international 2

外来人 non-natives 2

辛苦 hardworking 2

别墅 villa 2

发展 develop 2

circl 2

活动 activity 1

house apartment 2

逛街 shopping 1

经济实力 economical strength 2

媒体 media 2

市场 market 2

销售 sell 1

环境 surrounding 2

 

张江是个工作的地方,它是开发区,Zhangjiang is a place for working. It is a development zone after all.

冠以开发区的名头,让人感觉是创业的地方,The title itself feels like a place of entrepreneurship,

辛苦的地方,不是生活的地方,a place of hardworking instead of living.

没有生活气息商业和各方面都不方便,There is no sense of living here.Inconvenient commercially and in all other ways.

地铁晚了回不来,除非自己有,You have to be back early to take the subway, unless you have your car.

即使自己有也要开很,Even with a car you have to drive a long distance.

张江这边有很多别墅,In Zhangjiang there are many villas.

除非以后年纪大了,达到一定的程度,有了相当的经济实力,可以来住这里的别墅

But we could not afford them unless we become quite well off in future.

现在看来不大可能住这边。Now it seems totally impossible to live here.

上班确实要,It’s indeed a long way to go to work.

一开始认为很,后来和上海的朋友聊天,But later I talked to my native friends

发现他们从小就是这么的,and found them commute like this since childhood.

比如,他们有可能家住张江,而学校却在复旦大学那边,For example, they could live in Zhangjiang, but go to school near Fudan University,

因为都要读好学校,for they prefer good schools.

每天要在路上2-3个小时,从很小开始,Since they were little they have been spent 2 to 3 hours in commuting per day.

所以我现在觉得不算太,So now I think it’s not that far away.

就近工作当然好,Of couse it would be perfect to work nearby,

但是没有那么两全其美的事,but that is too good to be true.

 

这是一个让人比较能够集中思想的地方,But this is a place for people to easily concentrate.

在这里,人觉得比较塌实,People are down to earth here.

这里不象徐家汇南京西路物质诱惑特别多 Different from Xujiahui or Nanjing West Road,   whick is full of material distractions

每天要逛街按摩做脸,很多活动,where you do shopping, massage or facial every day.Plenty of things to do.

在这边,你来公司上班,无论是大公司国际公司,还是小公司,Here you come to work, no matter in a big international company or a small one,

这份事的时候,你可以专注地去,you can concentrate on your job.

这边的人的气质,这边有很多外来的人,The character of people here, among whom many are non-natives,

整个这里的气氛,小区的气氛,工业园的环境,让人觉得清,and the overall phenomenon of the zone are refreshing,

不会让人觉得太浮华,是工作的好地方。Not showy. A great place for work.

 

女孩子都有两种理想生活,Each girl has two ideal life styles.

一是她羡慕的;另一是她想得到的,One is what she is envious of, the other is what she wants.

当然这两种都不是她现在所拥有的,Of course neither is what she is having.

作为羡慕的方式,女孩子大都喜欢呆在大城市,As for the admiring, girls perfer big cities.

时间,穿的打扮得美,不太劳累的事情,Have spare time, dress themselves gorgeously, and do easy job.

这是一种生活方式,基本上可以随心所欲,It’s a life they can do basically whatever they want,

又可以照顾家庭,又能够自己的事情。can take care of their family and have their own career as well.

这就是她们比较羡慕的方式。This is the life girls envious of.

如果走运的话,能这样生活最好。It would be perfect if they are lucky enough to live such a life.

另外的方式,就是比较接近自己经过努力就能到的,The other is a life they can possibly access through effort.

首先有个,再有,a life with a home, their own apartment and car,

有稳定的公司工作, a stable position in company,

还有很好的一圈朋友家庭和睦。plus a group of friends and happy family life.

 

如果媒体市场销售工作,If you work with media, marketing or sales,

就需要在商业工作,you need to work in a business field,

能够接受很多和工作相关的外界刺激,accessable to lots of outside incentives related with your work,

比如广告,各种各样广告形式,such as advertisements in various forms.

还有各种业态总是最先出现在商业。And new business trends always initiate in the business zone.

但是如果你IT制造业或是其他,But if you do IT, manufacture or others.

在张江则是最好的,这边的配备也是很好的。Zhangjiang would be an ideal place, with all the neat facilities.

 

第一, ,代表着不方便,1. remote, which means inconvenience,

2,很积极, 2. highly active,

3,活力,在这个地方总能看到公司,3. energetic. We can always see new companies,

的人从全国各地,世界各地来此创业,and entrepreneurs are coming from all over the country or even the world,

4, 发展 。4. developing.

 

Interviewed: Qin Jin

Time: Evening, August 16, 2006

采访对象:秦晋张江某IT公司职员)

采访时间:2006816

生活气息 (sense of)living life 6

公司 company 7

do make 10

商业 business 3

far remote 6

new 3

car 3

创业 entrepreneurship 3

按摩 massage 1

做脸 facial 1

打扮 dress 2

国际 international 2

外来人 non-natives 2

辛苦 hardworking 2

别墅 villa 2

发展 develop 2

circl 2

活动 activity 1

house apartment 2

逛街 shopping 1

经济实力 economical strength 2

媒体 media 2

市场 market 2

销售 sell 1

环境 surrounding 2

 

张江是个工作的地方,它是开发区,Zhangjiang is a place for working. It is a development zone after all.

冠以开发区的名头,让人感觉是创业的地方,The title itself feels like a place of entrepreneurship,

辛苦的地方,不是生活的地方,a place of hardworking instead of living.

没有生活气息商业和各方面都不方便,There is no sense of living here.Inconvenient commercially and in all other ways.

地铁晚了回不来,除非自己有,You have to be back early to take the subway, unless you have your car.

即使自己有也要开很,Even with a car you have to drive a long distance.

张江这边有很多别墅,In Zhangjiang there are many villas.

除非以后年纪大了,达到一定的程度,有了相当的经济实力,可以来住这里的别墅

But we could not afford them unless we become quite well off in future.

现在看来不大可能住这边。Now it seems totally impossible to live here.

上班确实要,It’s indeed a long way to go to work.

一开始认为很,后来和上海的朋友聊天,But later I talked to my native friends

发现他们从小就是这么的,and found them commute like this since childhood.

比如,他们有可能家住张江,而学校却在复旦大学那边,For example, they could live in Zhangjiang, but go to school near Fudan University,

因为都要读好学校,for they prefer good schools.

每天要在路上2-3个小时,从很小开始,Since they were little they have been spent 2 to 3 hours in commuting per day.

所以我现在觉得不算太,So now I think it’s not that far away.

就近工作当然好,Of couse it would be perfect to work nearby,

但是没有那么两全其美的事,but that is too good to be true.

 

这是一个让人比较能够集中思想的地方,But this is a place for people to easily concentrate.

在这里,人觉得比较塌实,People are down to earth here.

这里不象徐家汇南京西路物质诱惑特别多 Different from Xujiahui or Nanjing West Road,   whick is full of material distractions

每天要逛街按摩做脸,很多活动,where you do shopping, massage or facial every day.Plenty of things to do.

在这边,你来公司上班,无论是大公司国际公司,还是小公司,Here you come to work, no matter in a big international company or a small one,

这份事的时候,你可以专注地去,you can concentrate on your job.

这边的人的气质,这边有很多外来的人,The character of people here, among whom many are non-natives,

整个这里的气氛,小区的气氛,工业园的环境,让人觉得清,and the overall phenomenon of the zone are refreshing,

不会让人觉得太浮华,是工作的好地方。Not showy. A great place for work.

 

女孩子都有两种理想生活,Each girl has two ideal life styles.

一是她羡慕的;另一是她想得到的,One is what she is envious of, the other is what she wants.

当然这两种都不是她现在所拥有的,Of course neither is what she is having.

作为羡慕的方式,女孩子大都喜欢呆在大城市,As for the admiring, girls perfer big cities.

时间,穿的打扮得美,不太劳累的事情,Have spare time, dress themselves gorgeously, and do easy job.

这是一种生活方式,基本上可以随心所欲,It’s a life they can do basically whatever they want,

又可以照顾家庭,又能够自己的事情。can take care of their family and have their own career as well.

这就是她们比较羡慕的方式。This is the life girls envious of.

如果走运的话,能这样生活最好。It would be perfect if they are lucky enough to live such a life.

另外的方式,就是比较接近自己经过努力就能到的,The other is a life they can possibly access through effort.

首先有个,再有,a life with a home, their own apartment and car,

有稳定的公司工作, a stable position in company,

还有很好的一朋友家庭和睦。plus a group of friends and happy family life.

 

如果媒体市场销售工作,If you work with media, marketing or sales,

就需要在商业工作,you need to work in a business field,

能够接受很多和工作相关的外界刺激,accessable to lots of outside incentives related with your work,

比如广告,各种各样广告形式,such as advertisements in various forms.

还有各种业态总是最先出现在商业。And new business trends always initiate in the business zone.

但是如果你IT制造业或是其他,But if you do IT, manufacture or others.

在张江则是最好的,这边的配备也是很好的。Zhangjiang would be an ideal place, with all the neat facilities.

 

第一, ,代表着不方便,1. remote, which means inconvenience,

2,很积极, 2. highly active,

3,活力,在这个地方总能看到公司,3. energetic. We can always see new companies,

的人从全国各地,世界各地来此创业,and entrepreneurs are coming from all over the country or even the world,

4, 发展 。4. developing.

 

采访对象:顾健宏/Interviewed: Gu Jian Hong

采访对象:顾健宏张江集团物业公司维修工)

采访时间:2006年8月16日

农民 peasant 6

实惠 benefits 4

拆迁 removed 3

就业 job 3

机会 opportunities 3

厂房 factory (building) 4

field land 4

变化 change 4

房子 house 3

工资 wage 1

绿化 green belts 1

农转非 townized 2

报销 write off(paid by other people)     2

征(地expropriate(land)     1

物业 property 2

镇保 townized 2

养老金 age pension 1

 

我姓顾,本名顾健宏,My surname is Gu, given name Jianhong.

是张江物业设施维修电工,working as a servicing electrician for Zhangjiang property.

我是张江人。I am a Zhangjiang native.

张江以前是一片荒,Zhangjiang used to be a diserted field,

转眼间盖起一座座小楼、厂房,but in a short period it has been occupied with buildings of factories

现在张江给了我们农民许多就业机会,It provides us peasants lots of job opportunities.

张江把我们农民取消掉了,都是镇保了,peasants of ours are canceled, all fo us are townized now.

老百姓也有了实惠,which benefits us a lot.

张江现在的变化实在是太大了,Zhangjiang has changed tremendously.

一般张江不过来到家就不认识了,Those who had left for a period can hardly recognize their home.

河流也改造好了,绿化也很好,The river has been reformed, with great green belts too.

什么是把农民取消了, what means ‘Our peasants were canceled’,means your peasants identity are canceled?

张江没有农民了,都镇保了,农转非了。 Yes, all peasants in Zhangjiang have been townized.

老年人带来实惠了,就医可以报销了,The aged people are benifited in that they have medical insurance now.

给我们就业机会,We are given job opportunities.

像我们都不要叫金的,养老金都一次性交好的,We don’t have to pay for our age pension,which has been paid once and for all

单位用我们都实惠多了。so the employers are happy to accept us.

家安在孙桥也是农村,My home is in Sunqiao, part of the village too.

现在掉了就是还没拆迁,The place has been expropriated, but not removed yet.

像我们拆迁也无所谓的,It doesn’t really matter for us to remove or not.

自己乡下房子住着舒服,大啊,Our big village house is convenient,

因为工资太低了,老农民房子是不大可能的。and the wage is too low to afford a house in the town.

张江变化特别大,八几年是一片,The change in Zhangjiang is huge. In 1980s it was all deserted field,

九几年就盖了许多厂房,and 1990s many factories buildings here,

二零零几年张江就没了,都是厂房了。 while in 2000s it was fully occupied with factories.

变化实在太大了。The change is extraordinary.

 

Interviewed: Gu Jian Hong

Time: Evening, August 16, 2006

 

 

农民 peasant 6

实惠 benefits 4

拆迁 removed 3

就业 job 3

机会 opportunities 3

厂房 factory (building) 4

field land 4

变化 change 4

房子 house 3

工资 wage 1

绿化 green belts 1

农转非 townized 2

报销 write off(paid by other people)     2

征(地expropriate(land)     1

物业 property 2

镇保 townized 2

养老金 age pension 1

 

我姓顾,本名顾健宏,My surname is Gu, given name Jianhong.

是张江物业设施维修电工,working as a servicing electrician for Zhangjiang property.

我是张江人。I am a Zhangjiang native.

张江以前是一片荒,Zhangjiang used to be a diserted field,

转眼间盖起一座座小楼、厂房,but in a short period it has been occupied with buildings of factories

现在张江给了我们农民许多就业机会,It provides us peasants lots of job opportunities.

张江把我们农民取消掉了,都是镇保了,peasants of ours are canceled, all fo us are townized now.

老百姓也有了实惠,which benefits us a lot.

张江现在的变化实在是太大了,Zhangjiang has changed tremendously.

一般张江不过来到家就不认识了,Those who had left for a period can hardly recognize their home.

河流也改造好了,绿化也很好,The river has been reformed, with great green belts too.

什么是把农民取消了, what means Our peasants were canceled,means your peasants identity are canceled?

张江没有农民了,都镇保了,农转非了。 Yes, all peasants in Zhangjiang have been townized.

老年人带来实惠了,就医可以报销了,The aged people are benifited in that they have medical insurance now.

给我们就业机会,We are given job opportunities.

像我们都不要叫金的,养老金都一次性交好的,We dont have to pay for our age pension,which has been paid once and for all

单位用我们都实惠多了。so the employers are happy to accept us.

家安在孙桥也是农村,My home is in Sunqiao, part of the village too.

现在掉了就是还没拆迁,The place has been expropriated, but not removed yet.

像我们拆迁也无所谓的,It doesnt really matter for us to remove or not.

自己乡下房子住着舒服,大啊,Our big village house is convenient,

因为工资太低了,老农民房子是不大可能的。and the wage is too low to afford a house in the town.

张江变化特别大,八几年是一片,The change in Zhangjiang is huge. In 1980s it was all deserted field,

九几年就盖了许多厂房,and 1990s many factories buildings here,

二零零几年张江就没了,都是厂房了。 while in 2000s it was fully occupied with factories.

变化实在太大了。The change is extraordinary.

采访对象:林鸿男/Interviewed: Lin Hong Nan

采访对象:林鸿男(张江集团物业公司维修工)

采访时间:2006年8月16日

 

高科技 Hi-tech 4

高科技开发(技术)园区 Hi-tech Park(zone 3

new 3

农村 village 4

发展 开发 develop development 4

生活 life 4

变化 change 3

进步 progress 1

超越 surpass 1

 

养老保险 age pension endowment insurance 2

劳动力 labor force 1

征收 expropriated 1

拆迁 removed 2

环境 surrounding 2

娱乐场所 recreation places 1

商品房 commercial housing 1

党中央 the central leadership of the Party 1

 

 

 

张江现在是高科技园区,Zhangjiang is a Hi-tech zone now.

几年以前还是一片农田,Years ago it was a field of farm.

党中央开发浦东、张江高科技开发园区,With the development of Pudong and Zhangjiang Hi-tech Park under the central leadership of the Party.

现在楼房一幢幢拔地而起,形成张江高科技技术园区。now buildings one after another are erected to form the Hi-tech Park.

我们亲眼接触的是一天一个变化变化太大。We have been watching the change happening everyday, it’s huge.

张江是中国越来越受关注的地方。Zhangjiang is the place with increasing attention given in China.

以前最早种过田,种过三年田,I had been doing farm work at the beginning, for 3 years.

后来去当了兵,是本地人。Later I joined the army. I’m a native.

农村农民生活水平也在不断地提高,The peasants life is improving constantly.

以前农村还要担心养老保险,现在什么都有了。We used to worry about the age pension, but now we have all these welfares.

以前是生产力、劳动力不能往外走,The labor force used to be forbidden to move outwards

只在这个生产队的田里,做一天工拿几个工分,They could only stay in the working team farm fields and earn a few Gong Fen per day.

现在不一样了,农田征收了,Now these all changed. The fields have been expropriated.

给建了小城镇还有养老保险,The town is established and we are given endowment insurance.

自己可以出去到公司里应聘,We can apply for jobs in the companies,

像我 这里出来也做做外业。like me, do some working outside.

这次胡锦涛也来参观要发展新农村President Hu Jintao came to visit and plan to develop the new village this time.

没有拆迁完的以后也是挺好的新农村 The part that has not been removed is quite neat new village,

什么都有,篮球、娱乐场所,with all the facilities like basketball courts and other recreation places.

以后要开银行医院一切设施都有,Later we will have banks, hospitals and all other facilities.

要是拆迁户现在都有商品房,The removed families have commercial housing.

生活环境也不错换个环境,Their new life surrounding is quite nice, too.

生活一天比一天好,跟过去完全不能相比。Life is improving day by day, totally incomparable with the past.

希望今后日子一天比一天更好,Hope life could be getting even better in future;

现在作为一个农民想不到的东西可能会在今后的日子当中都会实现。and what cannot be imagined by a peasant now would become ture.

生活, 变化, Life, Change.

有几个字:发展进步超越。Key words for it: development, progress, surpass.

 

Interviewed: Lin Hong Nan

Time: Evening, August 16, 2006

 

高科技 Hi-tech 4

高科技开发(技术)园区 Hi-tech Park(zone 3

new 3

农村 village 4

发展 开发 develop development 4

生活 life 4

变化 change 3

进步 progress 1

超越 surpass 1

 

养老保险 age pension endowment insurance 2

劳动力 labor force 1

征收 expropriated 1

拆迁 removed 2

环境 surrounding 2

娱乐场所 recreation places 1

商品房 commercial housing 1

党中央 the central leadership of the Party 1

 

 

 

张江现在是高科技园区,Zhangjiang is a Hi-tech zone now.

几年以前还是一片农田,Years ago it was a field of farm.

党中央开发浦东、张江高科技开发园区,With the development of Pudong and Zhangjiang Hi-tech Park under the central leadership of the Party.

现在楼房一幢幢拔地而起,形成张江高科技技术园区。now buildings one after another are erected to form the Hi-tech Park.

我们亲眼接触的是一天一个变化变化太大。We have been watching the change happening everyday, it’s huge.

张江是中国越来越受关注的地方。Zhangjiang is the place with increasing attention given in China.

以前最早种过田,种过三年田,I had been doing farm work at the beginning, for 3 years.

后来去当了兵,是本地人。Later I joined the army. I’m a native.

农村农民生活水平也在不断地提高,The peasants life is improving constantly.

以前农村还要担心养老保险,现在什么都有了。We used to worry about the age pension, but now we have all these welfares.

以前是生产力、劳动力不能往外走,The labor force used to be forbidden to move outwards

只在这个生产队的田里,做一天工拿几个工分,They could only stay in the working team farm fields and earn a few Gong Fen per day.

现在不一样了,农田征收了,Now these all changed. The fields have been expropriated.

给建了小城镇还有养老保险,The town is established and we are given endowment insurance.

自己可以出去到公司里应聘,We can apply for jobs in the companies,

像我 这里出来也做做外业。like me, do some working outside.

这次胡锦涛也来参观要发展新农村President Hu Jintao came to visit and plan to develop the new village this time.

没有拆迁完的以后也是挺好的新农村 The part that has not been removed is quite neat new village,

什么都有,篮球、娱乐场所,with all the facilities like basketball courts and other recreation places.

以后要开银行医院一切设施都有,Later we will have banks, hospitals and all other facilities.

要是拆迁现在都有商品房,The removed families have commercial housing.

生活环境也不错换个环境,Their new life surrounding is quite nice, too.

生活一天比一天好,跟过去完全不能相比。Life is improving day by day, totally incomparable with the past.

希望今后日子一天比一天更好,Hope life could be getting even better in future;

现在作为一个农民想不到的东西可能会在今后的日子当中都会实现。and what cannot be imagined by a peasant now would become ture.

生活, 变化, Life, Change.

有几个字:发展进步超越。Key words for it: development, progress, surpass.

 

采访对象:陈斌/Interviewed: Chen Bin

采访对象:陈斌(张江某动漫产业公司的高级管理人员)

采访时间:2006年8月15日

 

国外 abroad foreign

动漫 animation 3

市场 market 3

事业 产业 industry business 5

创意事业 creative industry 3

生活(区)      live living life(residential zone) 9

技术 科技 technology technological

高科技 Hi-tech 4

发展 开发 拓展 develop development 9

开发区 园区 zone garden 14

高科技开发区 Hi-tech Development Zone(garden) 6

科技园区 technological zone (garden) 4

朝阳 Blooming 3

外教 foreign teachers 4

培训 train 7

交通 transportation traffic 3

中国的特点 Chinese characteristics 1

国际化 international 1

操作 operate 1

韩国人 Korean 1

招商 to invite investment 1

先进 advanced 1

交流 exchange 2

机会 chance 1

平台 platform

经验 experience 2

品牌区 zone brand 1

挑战性 challenging 1

原创 original 1

定位 orientation 1

高端 high-end 1

孵化 incubating 1

 

 

 

 

非常有挑战性他是一个朝阳产业有许多未知的东西,As a blooming industry it is quite challenging, with many unknown things.

包括技术方面国外已经很成熟了,The technology aspect has been fully developed abroad.

但如何发挥中国的优势做出一些中国的动漫市场,The point is how to develop the animation market with Chinese characteristics.

大家都知道中国市场很大,We all know that China is a huge market

中国怎么在这方面获得大的蛋糕,To gain a bigger share in China,

实际上是如何结合中国的特点,is to take the Chinese characteristics into consideration,

把中国动漫事业创意事业做大、做强,and to develop a bigger and stronger animation industry or creative industry.

朝阳事业有很多未知的东西,The blooing industry has many uncertain things,

也需要很多一些相关的服务,一些孵化、一些推动作用,and needs many supporting services and incubating forces.

我们平台有多个原创项目在进行。On our platform many original programs are going on.

我们基本采用国际化操作模式,Basically we operate in an international mode,

包括现在正做的一个项目,也是与动漫相关的产品,like one program going on now, also an animation-related program,

也是我们孵化的整个项目,带头人是一个韩国人,is initiated by us as a whole, with a Korean head.

我们采用了一些先进国外理念,甚至好的一些国外项目,We have used some advanced foreign ideas, and even some foreign programs.

国外结合起来,我们定位比较高端,Our orientaion is an international high-end one,

这也符合我们张江集团的目标。which also fits the target of our Zhangjiang Group company.

包括文化产业公司的招商,并不是谁都可以进来的,Like the invitation investment of cultural business was not given easily.

他也有很多的条条框框,It has many restrictions too.

他的目的就是既然要做这个文化创意事业就要把他做好,做到前沿 The aim is do the best, advanced cultural creative industry.

这就是区别。This is the difference.

 

我们本身对这一块有制作培训,We have manufacture and training to this.

培训主要是针对技术培训,That’s mainly technological training,

因为艺术很难在短的时间内得到好的培训,For art cannot be trained in a short time,

除非科班出身或慢慢熏陶,but after academic education or long time edification.

它那边主要是针对技术层面上,We have already had three terms of training class,

我们现在已经办了三期培训班,which maily aims at technological aspect.

每一期是有两个外教,两周直接上课,Each term there are two foreign teachers for two-week teaching,

而不像国内, different from many other cases home.

国内现在培训现在很多,他们说是外教,Many of the native training classes boast foreign teachers,

最多也就给你上几个课时也就不错了,but only have a few hours give by them.

但是我们实打实每一期 有两个外教,While we honestly have two foreign teachers each term,

就是想把国外的一些先进经验、方法尽快的引到国内来,in order to introduce the foreign advanced experience and methods as soom as possible.

毕竟国内出去也不方便得到交流机会也不是很多,After all, it is not easy to get chance go abroad for exchange,

出去的话手续办理很麻烦, with troublesome procedures.

所以我们就把它引进来了,So we introduce it home.

目前都是针对社会, Later will be some enterprises and colleges,

下一步我们会针对一些企业、院校,Up to now the training is targeted at the society, and school.

他们来培训的同时也带一些讲座来进行交流,who will bring their own lectures for exchange while receive training.

 

我感觉张江更多是在做成一个科技园区,I think Zhangjiang is more like a technological zone,

它提供了很多的交通,which provides much traffic systems,

但是目前来说,它不是给你提供一个完全生活环境,but not fully a living place for now.

相关的基本的生活设施是有的,It has the basic living facilities,

但它走的路子不是要创造一个很好的生活,but does not mean to be a perfect residential zone.

它提供一个很方便的创业环境,It provides a convenient surrounding for entrepreneurship,

但它不是一个生活, not for living.

我没有做过这方面的比较。I have not compared in this way.

我认为张江高科技园区也是借了国外的一些特点,I think Zhangjiang Hi-tech park learned from the foreign experience,

来这样发展起来,during its development.

现在发展市场也很不错,Now the development has a quite good market.

原来是叫上海张江高科技园区,It used to be the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Garden,

现在是叫上海张江高科技开发区, but now the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Development Zone.

把上海几个不同方向的开发区统一命名。To combine several development zones with various orientations in Shanghai together and name it,

为上海张江高科技开发区,the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Development Zone,

把他作为一个品牌区推广,and publicize it as a zone brand,

至少到目前为止,它是很成功的, is quite successful, at least up to now.

所有的科技园区也好、开发区也好,我认为这一点都是有一个共同的,All the technological gardens and development zones have one thing in common,

它不是给你提供一个很丰富的生活区,It provides not a rich residential zone,

因为它的周边也在建一些居住区 for it has residential zones around.

,但我感觉它不是纯粹的为了生活交通方便,It is not for purely convenience of life or transportation.

开发区开始之前首先就有了一个地铁站,At the very beginning the development zone build its subway stop,

各方面就是为了能很方便出行,for a convenient outing.

我认为如果一个开发园区,又配备了一个很好的生活园区的话。I think a development zone together with a wonderful living garden,

我认为它会削弱一些开发区的一些拓展,would weaken its progress as a development zone.

因为你的生活很好、园区方便,If you live well, have a convenient garden,

交通又相对的好,路也很宽,车也很少空气, easy transportation, wide roads, few cars and fresh air,

如果这几点都有的话,很多人会来,自然会影响科技园区一开始的定位,then many would come and affect the original orientation of the technological zone.

您能否给我两三个关键词? Can you name two or three key words for me?

朝阳激情踏踏实实Blooming, passion, down-to-earth.

 

Interviewed: Chen Bin

Time: Evening, August 15, 2006

 

国外 abroad foreign

动漫 animation 3

市场 market 3

事业 产业 industry business 5

创意事业 creative industry 3

生活)      live living life(residential zone) 9

技术 科技 technology technological

高科技 Hi-tech 4

发展 开发 拓展 develop development 9

开发区 园区 zone garden 14

高科技开发区 Hi-tech Development Zone(garden) 6

科技园区 technological zone (garden) 4

朝阳 Blooming 3

外教 foreign teachers 4

培训 train 7

交通 transportation traffic 3

中国的特点 Chinese characteristics 1

国际化 international 1

操作 operate 1

韩国人 Korean 1

招商 to invite investment 1

先进 advanced 1

交流 exchange 2

机会 chance 1

平台 platform

经验 experience 2

品牌区 zone brand 1

挑战性 challenging 1

原创 original 1

定位 orientation 1

高端 high-end 1

孵化 incubating 1

 

 

 

 

非常有挑战性他是一个朝阳产业有许多未知的东西,As a blooming industry it is quite challenging, with many unknown things.

包括技术方面国外已经很成熟了,The technology aspect has been fully developed abroad.

但如何发挥中国的优势做出一些中国的动漫市场,The point is how to develop the animation market with Chinese characteristics.

大家都知道中国市场很大,We all know that China is a huge market

中国怎么在这方面获得大的蛋糕,To gain a bigger share in China,

实际上是如何结合中国的特点,is to take the Chinese characteristics into consideration,

把中国动漫事业创意事业做大、做强,and to develop a bigger and stronger animation industry or creative industry.

朝阳事业有很多未知的东西,The blooing industry has many uncertain things,

也需要很多一些相关的服务,一些孵化、一些推动作用,and needs many supporting services and incubating forces.

我们平台有多个原创项目在进行。On our platform many original programs are going on.

我们基本采用国际化操作模式,Basically we operate in an international mode,

包括现在正做的一个项目,也是与动漫相关的产品,like one program going on now, also an animation-related program,

也是我们孵化的整个项目,带头人是一个韩国人,is initiated by us as a whole, with a Korean head.

我们采用了一些先进国外理念,甚至好的一些国外项目,We have used some advanced foreign ideas, and even some foreign programs.

国外结合起来,我们定位比较高端,Our orientaion is an international high-end one,

这也符合我们张江集团的目标。which also fits the target of our Zhangjiang Group company.

包括文化产业公司的招商,并不是谁都可以进来的,Like the invitation investment of cultural business was not given easily.

他也有很多的条条框框,It has many restrictions too.

他的目的就是既然要做这个文化创意事业就要把他做好,做到前沿 The aim is do the best, advanced cultural creative industry.

这就是区别。This is the difference.

 

我们本身对这一块有制作培训,We have manufacture and training to this.

培训主要是针对技术培训,That’s mainly technological training,

因为艺术很难在短的时间内得到好的培训,For art cannot be trained in a short time,

除非科班出身或慢慢熏陶,but after academic education or long time edification.

它那边主要是针对技术层面上,We have already had three terms of training class,

我们现在已经办了三期培训班,which maily aims at technological aspect.

每一期是有两个外教,两周直接上课,Each term there are two foreign teachers for two-week teaching,

而不像国内, different from many other cases home.

国内现在培训现在很多,他们说是外教,Many of the native training classes boast foreign teachers,

最多也就给你上几个课时也就不错了,but only have a few hours give by them.

但是我们实打实每一期 有两个外教,While we honestly have two foreign teachers each term,

就是想把国外的一些先进经验、方法尽快的引到国内来,in order to introduce the foreign advanced experience and methods as soom as possible.

毕竟国内出去也不方便得到交流机会也不是很多,After all, it is not easy to get chance go abroad for exchange,

出去的话手续办理很麻烦, with troublesome procedures.

所以我们就把它引进来了,So we introduce it home.

目前都是针对社会, Later will be some enterprises and colleges,

下一步我们会针对一些企业、院校,Up to now the training is targeted at the society, and school.

他们来培训的同时也带一些讲座来进行交流,who will bring their own lectures for exchange while receive training.

 

我感觉张江更多是在做成一个科技园区,I think Zhangjiang is more like a technological zone,

它提供了很多的交通,which provides much traffic systems,

但是目前来说,它不是给你提供一个完全生活环境,but not fully a living place for now.

相关的基本的生活设施是有的,It has the basic living facilities,

但它走的路子不是要创造一个很好的生活,but does not mean to be a perfect residential zone.

它提供一个很方便的创业环境,It provides a convenient surrounding for entrepreneurship,

但它不是一个生活, not for living.

我没有做过这方面的比较。I have not compared in this way.

我认为张江高科技园区也是借了国外的一些特点,I think Zhangjiang Hi-tech park learned from the foreign experience,

来这样发展起来,during its development.

现在发展市场也很不错,Now the development has a quite good market.

原来是叫上海张江高科技园区,It used to be the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Garden,

现在是叫上海张江高科技开发区, but now the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Development Zone.

把上海几个不同方向的开发区统一命名。To combine several development zones with various orientations in Shanghai together and name it,

为上海张江高科技开发区,the Shanghai Zhangjiang Hi-tech Development Zone,

把他作为一个品牌区推广,and publicize it as a zone brand,

至少到目前为止,它是很成功的, is quite successful, at least up to now.

所有的科技园区也好、开发区也好,我认为这一点都是有一个共同的,All the technological gardens and development zones have one thing in common,

它不是给你提供一个很丰富的生活区,It provides not a rich residential zone,

因为它的周边也在建一些居住区 for it has residential zones around.

,但我感觉它不是纯粹的为了生活交通方便,It is not for purely convenience of life or transportation.

开发区开始之前首先就有了一个地铁站,At the very beginning the development zone build its subway stop,

各方面就是为了能很方便出行,for a convenient outing.

我认为如果一个开发园区,又配备了一个很好的生活园区的话。I think a development zone together with a wonderful living garden,

我认为它会削弱一些开发区的一些拓展,would weaken its progress as a development zone.

因为你的生活很好、园区方便,If you live well, have a convenient garden,

交通又相对的好,路也很宽,车也很少空气, easy transportation, wide roads, few cars and fresh air,

如果这几点都有的话,很多人会来,自然会影响科技园区一开始的定位,then many would come and affect the original orientation of the technological zone.

您能否给我两三个关键词? Can you name two or three key words for me?

朝阳激情踏踏实实Blooming, passion, down-to-earth.

 

采访对象:郑广/Interviewed: Zheng Guang

采访对象:郑广

采访时间:2007120日晚上

采访地点:于阳江郑家

 

设计 design 12

建筑 architecture buildings 15

drink 6

(交 exchange 11

(用地 基地 根据地) land(for certain purpose) base 11

朋友 friend 15

relation 29

公共 public relation 8

搞关 developing relation 6

generation 30

一代 their days 4

需要 need 5

game 7

department industries

地方 provincial 13

 

章(建筑) unauthorized (architecture) 3

平等 equality equal 5

自由 freedom 3

gambling 3

 

 

个人 individual 10

帝国*   Age of Empire 19

地主(斗地主*) landlord (fight against the landlord* ) 4

农业人口 agricultural population 1

活(活着 生活 干活)  live life activity work 15

money 23

双年展 Biennale 3

线 whistle-blowers 6

产阶级 proletariat 2

产阶级青年 proletariat youth 2

社会 society social 4

 

*帝国时代:微软游戏,简称“帝国”,Age of Empire: computer game by Microsoft

*斗地主:1,斗争地主,2,纸牌游戏, fighting against the landlord: 1, a communist activity 2, a card game

 

 

Q:你觉得艺术对于你的生活来说意味着什么呢?

A:就是把艺术融进自己的生命里面,每天着……什么都可以是作品

Q:在《帝国时代》(微软游戏)里,你看到了这样的一个艺术与生活的交点,那你觉得我们整个生活也处于一种游戏的状态吗?

A:应该是吧。其实我里的每个人,我弟弟,我妹妹都生活游戏里面,……每天连网打游戏——《传奇》(韩国网络游戏),连我妈妈、爸爸,又在另外一个叫“鼠牛虎兔龙蛇”的网络游戏里,就是隔两天开一次的地下赌博,可以在电脑上下注的,大家都生活游戏的世界里,的时候就觉得活在这世界里太了,但是的时候就要回到现实了,接受现实,明天要交了……有时会输得太了,付不起就觉得现实残酷,上次我在北京的展览,“鼠牛虎兔龙蛇”,表面是一个书画展,其实是以这个赌博做主题的,每天晚上都出鼠牛虎兔龙蛇,玄机重重啊。

Q:你刚才谈到的,生活与艺术工作都是混在一起了,那么你怎么看它们之间的关系?

A:我觉得通过赚工作,和帮别人干的经验,说不定哪天就会归纳到你自己的艺术创作上了,其实艺术很多都是来自于生活视而不见的东西,很多有意思的艺术家作品就是来源于生视而不见的东西。就是你要发现,很多一晃而过的东西,他留意到了和发现到了,就是他的东西了。

Q:你做一件双年展的作品和你为一个朋友做的定件有什么不一样?

A:不同之处只是在于在两个行业里面吧。双年展艺术……是进入策划人的情境里边的东西,而我为一个朋友设计是进入我朋友需要,我觉得都一样的,应该只是在两个不一样的情境。比如双年展主题,而我朋友设计也有主题,都有一个规划在里面,我觉得都是在接一单活,一接手就都要为他着想,而他们都要付我制作费,我都是拿了别人做自己事情。有时候也会有很多可以流通的想法,比如这次帮朋友做的东西,下一次就可以流通到某个双年展里去了,因为我已经测试过的了,比如做一些空间的作品,我们觉得这样流通着做空间也比较有意思

Q:你是生活于阳江这样的地方,你在这里是个什么样的形象或是角色?你和周围的环境的关系如何?

A:我一般是在酒的地方面对各行各业的人,比如税务局的、警察、工厂的老板等,而我在这里就只是一个设计的角色,但是在那里就不管你是什么身份了,到一定的程度大家就都平等了,他们对“艺术家”这个词也都不了解,有时候我们要穿得像古惑仔一样——是一种很好的保护色,和黑社会有时候也在一起了。他们很多行规或者很多行业里外界不知道的事情,我都知道,要不是跟他们打交道,我也不知道他们的内心世界是这样的,有时一些很大的丑闻,我是从警察的口里知道的,这些都会刺激我的想象力。在阳江,刚发生的事情我很快就会知道了,因为我有很多线人在起作用,工商各部门……昨天发生什么事情,第2天我就知道了,

Q:为什么你会觉得做这种违章的建筑有意思呢?公共关系就是你和社会的这种关系吧,感觉整个社会像一个城堡或大厦一样复杂,那么你对这种社会对象有什么感受?

A:因为是一种挑战,也是一种公共关系或者跟社会交往关系积累,如果没有这种积累,我的《帝国时代》就根本没办法做,我建立的这种关系现在已经很不得了了,我已经认识了阳江部门的各大领导,全部关系已经稳定了,就为我的“帝国”的顺利建成铺了路,那里那是一种农民,是不能转换商业住宅的,这块转卖到我们这些非农业人口的手里,城里的人就会关注你,你要在那里建立这么庞大建筑不可能的,根据什么规定就可以来你的,我就是突然有一天接到电话,要罚款……我马上要去公关,那些部门的人放了很多线人,都是线人起的作用,线人拿了的,为他们报信,比如你在家里秘密赌博他也会知道,所以,被的人就还要付线人,我这个帝国时代被罚了好多,说这个东西是非法的,通过罚款,它就变成模棱两可的东西,这个部门,你收了我交的,就要承担一些东西,但是它也不能承认你,就被默认为是半合法的,所以钱交得越多的越好。而我这些年面对的或者请客吃饭56人——当地的国土局规划局城建部门——我还知道城建部门有几个派系……真的把“帝国”做成了,那我在阳江就真的不得了了,以后就不知还会建什么了……,主要靠一种公共关系的建立。

Q:你刚才说了很多公共关系方面的东西,那你觉得和这些人打交道的这种状况会不会很荒诞?

A:是很荒诞,你不做这些就不会遇到这些东西,而你一跟他们接触了就很容易理解他们了……,比如开始你说是在建一个“猪栏”,怎么现在就变成一个“牛栏”了?——以前你说是建几个房子,现在突然看到你建了这么巨大的建筑出来,他就会来管,但是还是会默认你,就会和你商量怎么交差。

Q:你是很容易和周围的社会的人沟通和发生关系,那么你觉得做当代艺术这一点来说,艺术家是容易被人理解和接受的还是不容易的?

A:挺容易的,因为醉了就很容易把老底端出来了,我可以跟酒店或工厂的老板,跟武警小混混聊聊天,聊天的时候就会无意识谈到艺术展览,他们也会很好奇,所以我觉得很容易和他们沟通,这是小城镇的一种现象,只要你跟他建立了朋友关系,他很容易接受懂不懂没关系,起码他知道有这样的信息和状况。

Q:现在很多媒体、报纸都说公众对当代艺术不理解,你怎么看?

A:那只是一个表面的信息,一交了朋友就……说什么都会认可,他们也不是完全的了解你,只是好奇而已,反正他们也很闷,我经常会带一些朋友去看展览——他们去旅游顺便去看展览,比如说在展览上碰到很多老外,还跟他们合影,就觉得很新鲜,喜不喜欢都好,反正他挺高兴的,回来就很不一样了。

Q:他们对那些“恶心的”当代艺术作品有什么反应吗?

A:可能也都见怪不怪了吧,有什么比他们看到的更恶心呢?他那个行业里面那么真实的事都发生了,在他看来,一点也不会住他了

Q:你是在做这些建筑的时候玩公共关系的,但是你从来不跟那些策展人玩公共关系的是吧?

A:对,很多艺术家就把公共关系放在艺术方面了,但是我坚信一点,只要作品做得有意思,策划人是不会管这些东西的,因为他们太公正了。我们在艺术方面不要搞关系,一搞关系就觉得不好意思了,北京(的艺术家)应该挺会搞的,但是搞了那种关系其实也没用,一搞关系反而会被认为你有怎么样企图,因为我们和策划人都是平等关系,他需要我们,我们也需要他,配合好的话,对他来说更有好处, 我们在扮演什么样的角色他们都安排好了,所以不用去搞关系,搞了反而会

Q:以前搞艺术都是跑到中心的地方,而阳江作为比较边缘的地方,资讯也比较不发达……那么这个时代的所谓中心和边缘,以及乡下和城市这种问题,你能谈下你对这些问题的经验吗?

A:现在应该没有以前那么封闭了吧,慢慢地你发现可以通过网络,可以每天睡觉都不用管什么中心边缘了,因为中心也会,像毛主席也会派人来找到你,你有一个,有一个根据,中心知道你已经慢慢地建立了这样一个导弹的发射,你这个乡下导弹也可以发射到中心里了,不管是不是在乡下,你的思维也可以传达到中心或者跟中心在一起?……上一艺术家他们是怀着接近中心的愿望去的,他们不适合在家乡的周围活动,而是必须离家出走的,他们是一代人,要是他们呆在他们家乡的话,可能就真的没有创造性,他们只能离家出走,跟着中心,看怎么玩,的,机会会多很多,可以马上向中心,向党中央靠拢,或者省很多时间,我们这种人就真的是黑灯瞎火,什么都看不清,只是有一种……我也不知道是不是一种创造力,我们也不管它是什么,但是拿出去之后别人会觉得很有创造性也有可能,我们乡下的嘛他们没有,反而他们会更喜欢乡下的也有可能。

A:以前,我还经历过计划经济的时代,那个时候都是用粮票换东西的,我每天早上都要着一袋米跑到很远的地方去排队粉皮——其实也都是米做的,把机器一过,就变成粉皮,但是到了80年代末期,就突然有了很多超市之类的,只要有就什么都可以消费了,我就觉得这个商品的交换自由了,我就提出了“消费就是我的理想消费解恨”,其实消费……你就认定一个产品,或者认定一个设计,其实我买一个东西,有时候还会觉得“这个东西怎么设计得这么好?”,所以说消费对我还是有一些启发,我每天面对这个产品的时候都有启发,因为它包含了设计的成分在里面——就摆脱了我那个时候的一种关于商品交换沉重感,但是这个记忆还是很铭心的,我永远都记得那时候每天都要驮一袋米去粉皮,还要6点多就起来了,起得那么早,但还是要排很长的队,现在再也不会干这种事情了……但是我妈妈那一代也是这样,就是说我爸爸和我妈妈是两个阶层的,我妈妈是那种地主妹,我爸爸就真的是那种种地无产阶级,说起来……我爸爸是耕完一天的田,没有东西吃,拍拍脚就上床睡觉了的那种阶层,但是我妈妈,在中国那个食物缺乏的时候,她们家里都还有洋参、鱼翅,吃不完倒进垃圾桶去,我爸爸说“哇,真是太幸福了”——真的是两个阶层的人,但是为什么他们两个人结合了呢?这是一种政治斗争的结果。阳春那边斗地主,是把地主捆绑起来,用棍子一敲,晕了,推到河里面,就流到阳江,也不知道这是不是当年阳春的一种做法,所有地主尸体都搁在那条河里面了,村里的人都不敢里面的水了,只喝从地心的井里挖出来的水……我妈妈那个时候还在读中学,听到消息之后就连夜逃跑了,因为一被抓起来也可能会被斗,就和我妈妈的妈妈逃出来起来了,然后说最好是给一个无产阶级的青年,然后就找到了我爸爸。

 

Interviewed: Zheng Guang

Time: Evening, January 20, 2007

Location: Zheng’s Residence at Yangjiang, Guangdong province

 

设计 design 12

建筑 architecture buildings 15

drink 6

(交 exchange 11

(用地 基地 根据地) land(for certain purpose) base 11

朋友 friend 15

relation 29

公共 public relation 8

搞关 developing relation 6

generation 30

一代 their days 4

需要 need 5

game 7

department industries

地方 provincial 13

 

章(建筑) unauthorized (architecture) 3

平等 equality equal 5

自由 freedom 3

gambling 3

 

 

个人 individual 10

帝国*   Age of Empire 19

地主(斗地主*) landlord (fight against the landlord* ) 4

农业人口 agricultural population 1

活(活着 生活 干活)  live life activity work 15

money 23

双年展 Biennale 3

线 whistle-blowers 6

产阶级 proletariat 2

产阶级青年 proletariat youth 2

社会 society social 4

 

*帝国时代:微软游戏,简称“帝国”,Age of Empire: computer game by Microsoft

*斗地主:1,斗争地主,2,纸牌游戏, fighting against the landlord: 1, a communist activity 2, a card game

 

Source of keywords:

 

 

Q: What does art mean to you in your life?

 

A: To make art as an integrated part of life, just live the life everyday……anything can be a work of art.

 

Q: In The Age of Empires (game by Microsoft), you see the juncture where art and life cross. Do you think our whole life is in a state of game?

 

A: Probably yes. Actually all my family live in games. My younger brother and sister immerse themselves in The Legend of Mir (MMORPG game from Korea) every day; even my parents are game addicts, they are obsessed with an online game called “Mouse, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon and Snake”, which is about underground gambling, taking place every two days. You can bet via computer. So they all live inside the virtual world game, exhilarated upon winning and pulled back to the reality when losing – time to pay for the cost. Sometimes they lose too much and get totally broke, frustrated by the cruelty of reality. Last time I did an exhibition entitled “Mouse, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon and Snake” in Beijing. Seemingly, it is an ink painting and calligraphy exhibition, but it’s actually about that gambling game. You see, “Mouse, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon and Snake” appear every day, it’s really esoteric stuff.

 

Q: You just mentioned your life and art are mixed together. How do you see their relation?

 

A: I think the experiences of working for others to make money would someday inspire my creation of work of art. Actually art is principally based on overlooked things in life. A lot of interesting artists work with those materials. Those who are able to discern the transitory daily matters will turn them into their works of art.

 

Q: What’s the difference between a work you do for the biennale and those you do at the request of friends?

 

A: The difference is that they are in two different fields. Biennales are about art, and you work within the context set by the curator. Things I design for my friends are based on their needs. I don’t think there’s any difference with working method, it’s just different context. For instance, both biennale and my friend will set the subject for me, there’s planning in both. In both situations, I feel I’m being commissioned to do something, and I have to think about the requirement of my client, who covers my production expense. So this is how it is: I take someone else‘s money and do my own art. Some of the ideas I came up with are portable – a design I did for a friend may as well be presented in some biennale next time. This has been tested, there are some works done for some art spaces (which eventually went to biennales). We find porting works between spaces like this interesting.

 

Q: Living in a place like Yangjiang, what’s your image or role in the city? What’s the relationship between you and the environment?

 

A: Usually I deal with people from different fields when drinking, they are some one from tax bureau, policemen, factory owners, etc. My role here is ‘designer‘. But actually no matter what identities you bear, after a period of drinking all are equal. They all have no idea of what the term ‘artist‘ means, and sometimes we have to dress up like hooligans, it’s very useful camouflage, with which you’ll be able to hang out with even local mafia. I know a lot of hidden rules and insider’s secrets from them, and I wouldn’t have understood their inner feelings had I not “befriended” them. Sometimes I learn about scandals from some policemen, these things will all stimulate my imagination. I’m pretty well-informed in Yangjiang, because I have a lot of whistle-blowers working for me, they work in every industries……so I always get yesterday’s news in the morning of the second day.

 

Q: Why are you interested in building unauthorized architectures? Public relation is the relationship between you and the society. The society in which you reside is as complex as a castle or skyscraper, how do you feel about this kind of social object?

 

A: It’s a challenge, as well as the accumulation of public relation or social relation. Without this accumulation I couldn’t have created the The Age of Empire. The relation I have established is very strong and effective now: I already know all the major government officials of Yangjiang, we have stable relationship. This forms the basis of my ‘empire‘. The land I have is originally for agricultural use, and it’s against the law to use it for commercial or residential purpose. So when people like me, i.e.: non-agricultural people, obtained the land, there would inevitably be some attention drawn to you, and it would be impossible for you to build large-scale architectural complex as there are a lot of regulations according to which you’ll get fined. One day, I got a phone call about penalty, I have contact some of the government officials immediately. There are whistle-blowers in many departments, they are very helpful. They are paid so they do their job, like if you do illegal gambling at home, the government will know. So the fined will have to pay the whistle-blowers too. I was fined for this Age of Empire, they said it’s illegal, but after I paid my fine, it became something ambiguous. Since you received my money, you must do something for me. But the government can’t just legitimize my unauthorized architecture, so they ended up being quasi-legal. The more you pay, the better. Over the past few years I “befriended five or six groups of government people, including guys from the National Land Bureau, the Planning Bureau and the Department of Urban Construction. I even know how many factional circles exist within the Department of Urban Construction……If I do manage to realize this Empire, I would become really formidable in Yangjiang, there’s probably going to be wildly ambitious projects in the future……So it’s all about public relations.

 

Q: Do you feel ridiculous to have to deal with these people?

 

A: It is ridiculous indeed. You wouldn’t have to deal with these if you hadn’t done what you did. But once you got to know these guys, you would find it easy to understand them. For example, I started by telling them I’m going to build a pig sty and I ended up with a cattle shed. Also, I said I want to build a couple of houses but ended with this huge complex of buildings. The government people will come to you for these discrepancies, but they’ll serve as the buffer between you and the government, negotiating with you for a solution.

 

Q: You have frequent communication with other people, do you think contemporary artists have problem being understood?

 

A: It’s actually easy, it’s all about alcohol! Once you get drunk, you can talk about even the most intimate things. When I’m having conversation with hotel or factory owners, policemen or local hooligans, I would unconsciously mention art or exhibitions, and they are usually very curious. So I find it easy to communicate with these people. This is an unique phenomenon in smaller cities; once you befriend a person, he/she would accept what you do regardless of whether he/she understands it or not. At least they know something about that.

 

Q: A lot of media are saying that contemporary art is not understood by the public. What do think about this?

 

A: That’s only superficial information. Once you become friends, they will accept anything you say. They don’t really know what is going on, they are just curious. I often bring bored friends to exhibitions, they are traveling when there happens to be this exhibition in town, and I’ll show them to it. Usually they see a lot of foreigners on the exhibition and they take photos with them. This is something new for them, and I think whether they like the exhibition or not, they find a lot of fun in it, and they will go home as a new person.

 

Q: Do they have any strong reaction to those ‘disgusting’ contemporary art works?

 

A: I guess they have seen too much of those. Is there anything more disgusting than what they have seen in their life? They saw real heavy shit happens in their fields, and the stuff on the art exhibitions are nothing to be scared of.

 

Q: So you build up your relations for your architectural projects, but never do PR activities to those curators, right?

 

A: Right. Many artists reckon that you’ll need relations to survive in the art scene. But I strongly believe that as long as you come up with interesting works, the curators don’t care about this relation stuff, they are too unbiased. We shouldn’t focus on relations when doing art, it’s very embarrassing. Beijing (artists) is good at these things, but actually it’s of little help, people would think you have an axe to grind. We artists and curators are equal, we both need each other, so working cooperatively would do good to them, who has assigned roles to us early on. So it’s really unnecessary to work yourself up on relations, it will only make things worse.

 

Q: Artists have this tradition of swarming to the centre, but Yangjiang is a relatively marginalized city with limited flow of information. Would you like to comment on the experience of centre vis-à-vis fringe, countryside vis-à-vis city?

 

A: I think it is less closed than before. Eventually you’ll see that, with the aid of the internet, you don’t have to be concerned about the problem to centre as opposed to fringe. In the centre, even Chairman Mao would send someone for you. You have this base and the centre knows that, they know you have this missile base set up, and you are able to fire homemade missiles to the centre. It doesn’t matter where you are physically, your thoughts can be transferred to the centre……the last generation of artists were aiming for the centre; they were destined to leave their hometown. In their days, it was probably a good thing to do so, as staying at home would have stifled their creativity. So you have to follow the centre and the communist party, it was the more effective way. People like us are really clueless, we are totally in the dark, but we have this, shall we say creativity? We actually don’t know what it is, but other people might as well perceive it as creativity. After all, we are in the countryside, and who knows, they might be interested in something from the countryside.

 

采访对象:段元元/Interviewed: Duan yuanyuan

采访对象:段元元

采访时间:2007118日上午

采访地点:于广州维他命创意空间

 

关系 relationship connect have anything to do with has to do with 18

现实 realistic reality realism 11

社会 society social 10

有意思 fun 6

思考 reflection 6

生活 life 5

想象 imagination 5

意义 meaningless 5

个人 personal 3

媒介 medium 4

方式 way 6

塑料花 plastic flower 2

垃圾 trash 2

自己 self own 19

 

中国 Chinese China 9

西方 Western 3

卖画 selling works sell painting sales works sell 12

身份 social status 3

开玩笑 pranks joke 5

不一样 different differently 6

chickens 6

 

 

Q:与观众沟通

A:通过画面的展示,可能对我来说是比较合适的一种方法。我的画面可能不是很好看,可能技巧不是很高,可能会引起别人反感——这种“反感”就已经是一种触动了。我觉得画面说得太了就没有什么意思了,它应该是比较个人私密的,但是你还是要和周围发生关系,你还是要别人走进你的画面,比如画大白菜,观众面对这些东西会比较容易走进去。我肯定不会只顾自己,不会像是写了一篇日记,然后把它起来,因为是艺术

Q:你觉得艺术市场对你的创作有没有什么影响?。

A:市场肯定对一些艺术家有很大冲击,当然也不能说是完全不好的,但画家卖画肯定对他们是有影响艺术家当然很好,关键是艺术家在卖画热潮中,在“市场”很好的时候,是否还能保持住自己艺术向前冲的状态?是否还能坚持自己当初的艺术理想?它肯定是双刃剑,有好处也有坏处。就我自己而言,当然偶尔也卖画,但目前对我来讲最重要的还是怎样把画画好,怎样在艺术上有发展。虽然绘画有很多局限性,但我觉得还是有很多尝试的余地,还是有潜力可以挖。

Q:你觉得现在很多展览上的作品跟市场方面有什么关系吗?

A:现在很多展览背后都有很多操作,都是为了卖画收藏,以前我不太清楚,现在我慢慢观察就可以看出来,我后来就不大喜欢参加这种展览了,兴趣不大,当然也不排除一些的展览——一些学术价值比较高的展览,这些就可以参加。

Q:艺术作品价值

A:就是要跟当下生存状况有关,对它有所思考,不管用什么媒介,但要从自己角度来发出自己的声音。我的画好像很多人看不懂不喜欢,其实我的画是很明白的,只是我没有说得太而已,它就像是通过打比喻开玩笑的比较间接的方法,图式上不是很传统的技法,有时像是坏画之类的,有点乱七八糟破破烂烂的。我比较注重想象力,不是很现实主义地表现一些东西,而是喜欢加些想象进去,就是瞎编乱造,很多东西掺杂在一起,有些想象力,有些开玩笑,有些一本正经,都是有可能的,但我可能是很有礼貌地在开玩笑,我把大白菜这些元素放在一起——画面还是不能说得太清楚,可能这些神秘的东西才是它有意思的东西所在。我觉得关注现实的方法很多,它不是说你直接地从身边周遭中拿过来用,比如说我画空中小姐,她也算是生活中的现实,只是我加了一些想象进去,比如把她放在一种很荒诞的环境中或放在旁边,我觉得画画这种东西还是比较一点的好,而不是很实在很直接的“现实主义”,我看到很多艺术家,往往喜欢把自己的东西做成雕塑,但我觉得画面是的,把它做成雕塑就会显得太实在了,那毫意义。这两年我画了很多关于的东西,因为我觉得它比较,到处拉屎、到处乱跑,而且现在很多东西都可以引伸地叫做“”,它的含义很多。我觉得这就是对现实的一种关注,手法可以很多,发现现实方式不重要,关键是怎样来做作品。现在很多艺术家做的东西感觉题材宏大、很尖锐,其实也跟社会没有很大的关系,有的只是很表面关系

Q:艺术家的角色。

A:我觉得现在艺术家的角色应该是一个很普通工作者,就是把自己的工作做好就行了,这不是说你卖画卖得多好,而是说你怎样从自己的角度出发去把作品做好和怎样去关注生活艺术家现在肯定充当不了一个社会的什么使命,如果自我感觉还好,就是感觉这个工种还比较,不用天天干脏活,还有点身份,还受人尊敬,经常出席一些大小会议,但其实很多作品都是垃圾,而且其实很多人还不知道自己是在生产垃圾,还感觉自己有身份。我觉得艺术家和别人不一样是很重要的,现在很多人做作品都差不多,这样就意思不大了。因为扫地也可以扫得跟别人不一样,做裁缝也可以将衣服做得和别人不一样,而艺术家作为普通工作者,也可以画跟别人不一样,从不同的角度做一些比较有意思的东西,我觉得这个很重要,如果只是天天去重复画一些东西,对我来说意义不大

Q:你对中国当代艺术的关键性印象是什么?

A:很,像个塑料花,颜色很鲜艳花枝招展表面堂皇,其实实质没有生命力。我觉得它可以不必像,但它要对社会有点实质性的作用,就是要实在一点。现在大家都比较浮躁,比较看重表面的东西,这跟社会状况是有关系的。但我觉得还是有余地可以做,可能在这种趁乱打劫的情况下反而会有一些的作品出现,这些年来中国当代艺术还是出现了一定程度上的活力,这给中国乱糟糟的状况提供了很多方式可能性

 

Interviewed: Duan yuanyuan

Time: Morning, Jan. 18, 2007

Location: Vitamin Creative Space, Guangzhou

 

 

关系 relationship connect have anything to do with has to do with 18

现实 realistic reality realism 11

社会 society social 10

有意思 fun 6

思考 reflection 6

生活 life 5

想象 imagination 5

意义 meaningless 5

个人 personal 3

媒介 medium 4

方式 way 6

塑料花 plastic flower 2

垃圾 trash 2

自己 self own 19

 

中国 Chinese China 9

西方 Western 3

卖画 selling works sell painting sales works sell 12

身份 social status 3

开玩笑 pranks joke 5

不一样 different differently 6

chickens 6

 

 

Source of keywords:

 

 

Q: How to communicate with the audience through painting?

 

A: (I communicate) through the painting, which is probably a more suitable way for me. My paintings may not be pretty, my technique may not be superb, and may even trigger repulsion from people, which is already a kind of touch. If we spell out everything in the painting, then it is no longer interesting. It should be more personal and private, yet you still have to connect with your surroundings; and you still want people to walk into your painting. Like painting chickens, cabbage, etc. , people can walk into these paintings more easily. Certainly I’m not self-centered, not like keeping a diary and locking it up, because it’s art.

 

Q: Does the art market have any influence on your art?

 

A: Surely the market has great impact on certain artists, and it’s not all bad. But painters selling works would certainly influence them. It’s certainly a good thing for an artist to be rich, but the point is can he hold on to his own artistic ideals and keep thrusting forward among this sales craze in this good market period? No doubt it’s a double-edged sword, with pros and cons. For myself, of course I sell paintings once in a while, but most important for me at this present moment is how to paint well, how to make progress artistically. Despite the limitations of painting, I feel there’s still much room for attempt and much potential left to be exploited.

 

Q: What kind of connection do you think are the works shown at exhibitions and the market?

 

A: A lot of exhibitions nowadays are heavily manipulated behind the scene. It’s all about sales and collection. I didn’t know much about this before, but later I gradually figured it out through observation. I came to dislike participating in such shows. I don’t have much interest in them; but of course I don’t reject shows entirely – some of the shows have higher academic values which I’m willing to participate in.

 

Q: How do you value the art works?

 

A: It has to be related to the present condition of existence. There has to be some reflection on it. It doesn’t matter which medium you use, as long as you speak your own voice from your own perspective. It seems that a lot of people don’t understand my paintings and don’t like them. In fact, my paintings are quite clear. It’s just that I didn’t spell everything out directly. It’s done through more indirect ways like metaphors and pranks. I don’t follow traditional techniques in format; sometimes it’s like bad paintings – a bit disarrayed, tattered. I concentrate more on imagination, not the kind of realistic expression, but with lots of imagination mixed in, making stuff up, mixing stuff in – some imagination power, some puns and pranks, some serious stuff. Anything is possible. But I joke with politeness; I put the elements like chickens and cabbage together – you can’t spell things out in your paintings; and these mysterious parts may be where the fun lies. There are different ways of concerning reality; and it doesn’t have to be a direct borrowing. For instance, I paint airline stewardesses, who are part of the reality of life; but I add some imagination to it, like I would put them in an absurd context or next to chicken. I think painting would do better if it was less concrete, away from the solid, direct “realism.” I see many painters enjoy turning their own works into sculpture; but I feel that painting is something void, and turning it into sculpture makes it too concrete, and thus meaningless. In the past two years I have painted a lot of works about chickens, because I think they are dirty, they shit everywhere and run all over the places; plus nowadays a lot of things can be called “chicken” (e.g.”Ji (Chicken)” in Mandarin, homophonic with ” Ji (Prostitutes)”) by extension; the word has different connotations. I think that is a kind of concerning reality, and there are lots of different ways of doing it. It’s not important how you discover the reality; the vital part is how you make your piece. Many artists nowadays produce works with grand, acute subjects, which in fact might not have anything to do with the society, or it might have a superficial relationship with the society at best.

 

Q: What’s the role of the artist?

 

A: The role of the artist now should be a very ordinary laborer. Just do your own work well and that’s enough. It doesn’t mean how well your works sell, but how well you produce good works from your own point of view, and how well you care for life. The artist today surely cannot fulfill any social mission. If he feels good about himself, it means he feels the profession is not too bad – you don’t have to dirty your hands, and you enjoy some sort of social status; you’re well respected, and you show up at big and small conferences. But in fact a lot of art works are just trash, and many people do not realize they are producing trash, and feel great about their social status instead. I believe, for an artists, it’s important to be different from others. Many people now produce similar works, and that’s just meaningless. Even sweeping floor can be done differently from others; a tailor can make dresses different from others. And the artist, as an ordinary laborer, could very well paint differently from other people – paint more interesting stuff from a different angle, which I think is important. Repeating the same thing everyday simply makes no sense to me.

 

Q: What’s your key impression of contemporary art in China?

 

A: It’s quite empty, like plastic flowers bright colors, nicely dressed up, impressive on the surface, but no life energy inside. I think it doesn’t have to be like flowers; it should have some practical function to the society. In other words, should have more contents. People today are impulsive and inpatient; they value what’s only superficial – which has to do with the current social state. But I think there is still space for work; perhaps some good works might appear in this atmosphere of looting in turmoil. I must say that in the past several years there has appeared a certain degree of energy in the contemporary Chinese art, which provided various ways and possibilities to the messy confusion in [this country] China.

 

采访对象:张杭/Interviewed: Zhang Hang

采访对象:张杭

采访时间:2007125日下午

采访地点:于杭州贝尼尼咖啡馆

 

 

环境 environment ecology 8

电视 television 10

生活 life 10

时间 time 20

终极 ultimate 8

终极问题 ultimate question 7

语言 language 17

大众 the mass the public popular 12

社会 society 20

个人 individual(s) 8

灵魂 soul 9

边缘 edge 9

关系 relationship 17

媒体 media 6

文化 culture cultural 18

系统 system 8

无意义 meaningless 7

录像 video art 5

当代艺术 contemporary art 11

态度 attitude 8

作品 works 17

 

6,4      ‘June 4′ incident 1

天安门 Tian’anmen 1

社会主义 socialistic 1

政治体系 political system 1

政治 politics 3

意识形态 ideology 2

上层建筑 superstructure 2

 

play 7

hot 3

名气 成名 出名 知名fame (renowned famous reputation getting famous)  19

控制 control 2

新潮艺术 avant-garde art new art 2

马戏团 circus 4

技术 technique 4

机会 chance 2

圣人 saint 4

展览 the exhibition 24

中国 China 28

西方 West Western abroad westerners 14

变化(改变) change shift 15

相对 relatively 10

new 17

快感 have fun 4

中国特色 Chinese characteristics 3

 

 

Q:你觉得当代艺术跟整个当代中国的社会现实是怎么样的一个关系?

A:80代现在来比较的话,很多人态度上面可能有很大的转变,包括我自己,我觉得可能在89年以前吧,就是北京的那个大展当代艺术或者说新潮艺术实际上基本上被看作是一种精英文化的一个标志,也就是说它是用来唤醒社会或者说唤醒大众的,是所谓的思想史或是文化的一部分;我想这样的一种幻觉打破是在“八九”年以,也就是“六四”以后,因为发现真正的艺术它只是艺术,而且艺术不是可以用来改造社会的,它只是这个社会的一部分,而且在很大程度上它是受到大众文化的影响,简单地讲,比如做录像,在西方中国一样,并不是先发明了录像艺术然后才有了大众文化大众艺术;是作为大众文化电视有了以后,然后才有了录像艺术艺术家利用了这个材质、这个媒介,然后试图利用它来批判大众文化;所以实际上不能说是你改变大众文化——当然到了后来有一个相互影响作用。所以我在想,到了90年代或者是21世纪以后,当代艺术的这种姿态态度状态,慢慢的就开始有了很大的变化,不是像原先那么的孤立、比较封闭保守,现在相对来讲比较的开放,比较愿意介入社会,比较愿意和大众对话,或者说比较愿意利用大众资源。我们去年和今年在杭州做的“出事”、“没事”两个展览,其实也是这样一个出发点,很多艺术家从北京、上海过来的,在一起做这样的展览,就是说这些艺术家可能也都有一个这样的共同方向,一个趋势

Q:谈到西方,你觉得现今中国的当代艺术和西方相比是很落后还是怎么样,这两者之间的状况你有什么看法?

A:能不能用“落后”这个词我不知道,好像这个字听起来有点刺激,也很难用,因为艺术上不存在先进落后这样的概念,它不是体育比赛——快五秒慢五秒,但我觉得是不同话语,也就是说在西方相对来说,它是在比较开放的一个环境里面,很多知识,或者个人社会碰撞融合的一种关系,但是在中国,基本上还是一种个人行为,相对来说比较封闭,一方面是所有人受到的这种教育背景比较封闭。比如说我们这一代,包括很多上了四十岁的人,几乎都是从那个时候美院出来的,当时的美院基本上只能学绘画,而绘画基本上都是写实,而写实基本上又是一两种风格,是由不得你的——然后从学校出来以后,实际上我们的知识背景是非常狭窄的,在语言上在媒介上的认识实际上是很狭窄的,很有限的,这点跟西方艺术家不一样,我们在学校的时候,自己选择空间是很小的,很有选择的可能性,基本上都是很压抑的,到了毕业以后,很多人都——新潮艺术最大的特点就是反抗不满,而这个反抗不满真正在语言上进行很理性自发批判的其实不多,这种反抗是很多因素混杂在一起,对于社会的反抗,对于文化的反抗,对于传统的反抗,对于教育反抗。整个80年代艺术亢奋情绪化现在,到了90年代以后,情况有点不一样,很多人出国了解了很多,也了解了国际背景,国内艺术院校教育相对来说也比以前宽松一点,又增加了很多学科,但是我觉得有一点还是没有改变,现在的艺术家有这样的一个概念——就是跨领域跨学科的一种工作意识,而在西方这种东西是越来越普遍了。我们知道现在西方有很多学校,它把不同领域的人员组合在一起,哲学的、心理学的、艺术设计的、工业设计的、电子的、动力的、生物的,所有人在一起工作跨学科,已经没有像原来那种——比如说我是艺术家,艺术家就是一个个人行为——很封闭意识了,但是在中国,基本上“一个艺术家”的这种意识、这种态度还是非常强烈,很多人是这样给自己定位的,而且的确是以这个东西感到骄傲的。所以我在想,中国当代艺术现在受到很多西方关注,其实不是因为它整个艺术的生态环境,而是因为它的社会文化特征,包括政治体系市场政治。它是作为全球文化描述过程当中一个区域性文化现象被关注,我们现在从艺术上讲,跟西方、南美、非洲……所有这些国家艺术层面上的对话不平等的,当然可能非洲也一样,也有跟我们差不多的问题,南美也有,一部分是自身的,一部分可能是外部的一些客观的原因。

Q:那你怎么看现在中国的艺术教育?

A:这是一个很沉重的事情,因为中国艺术教育西方体制完全不一样,中国的教育尤其是艺术教育,属于意识形态,是上层建筑,文化大革命为什么会搞起来?文化大革命最早就是从一个意识形态上层建筑开始的,学校红卫兵……。跟西方的教育比,中国的教育在一些具体的教育单位有一定空间权利问题,系统不一样,中国是极其有限的——就是说你可以做的事情是极其限的,但是我觉得在这样的一个有限空间里面,你还是可以做一些事情的,也不是完全无所作为,我们自己都是从学校过来的,那个时候其实就觉得这个系统是挺糟糕的,现在艺术教育的状态我觉得还是羞答答的、似是而非的一种状态,就是遮遮掩掩的,很多表面改进就是用很多技术概念替代系统改革,但是本质上没有多大变化,我到这个学校差不多有四年左右了,我在想,这个学校增加了很多学科,包括我现在的这个新媒体,其实在全国很多学校都这样,都不断的增加的学科,但是教育理念或者说方法模式上跟以前没有多大差别,所以这个是比较大的问题,我们只是在一块很小空间里面做一点小动作,一点自己认为可以的事情,然后一些国家计划的东西,我还不知道最后能怎么样,反正在这个小自留地里面玩玩也有点快感,当然很,因为你没有办法——你要跟整个系统交道,很多事情你身不由己,没有办法!我的看法的一个结论是,它基本是换汤不换药,现在基本上是这种状况,整个教育系统都出了问题,有很问题!这个系统如果不变,加多少学科没有用

Q:这里面跟整个中国当代文化现实是有关的吗?

A:不光是跟中国当代文化现实有关,也跟整个社会体制结构有关,中国是一个有中国特色社会主义,对不对?教育其实也是一样,就是中国特色的一个教育,什么东西如果是谈到有中国特色的、什么人如果讲有自己的特色,实际上就没有任何讨论余地!譬如说,我上课,一个学生将做的东西给我看,我觉得好像有些地方做的不是特别合适,就给他一些建议,他说:“我觉得很好啊,我就是想要这样,个就是我想要的,”那么我就没有话说了,如果那样就是他想要的,我怎么可以剥夺?对不对?没有办法谈!

Q:这种情况很糟糕啊。

A:中国现在有一大堆问题,一个是社会结构家庭伦理等等,文化教育,实际上都是相互之间有牵联的,中国家庭结构影响到了教育,这个也是很成问题的,然后又是一个社会系统,这个太复杂了!所以我觉得在中国教育是全世界最累的!真的!等于说你要跳进去是你活该,你活该你自找!你去任何地方——欧洲美国,你发现在学校当老师哪怕当个院长都没有这么!在美国当个院长都不比在这当个科长累。但是它有没有效率?很累!整天,但是没有效率的!

 

Interviewed: Zhang Hang

Time: Afternoon, January 25, 2007

Location: Bernini Cafe, Hangzhou

 

 

环境 environment ecology 8

电视 television 10

生活 life 10

时间 time 20

终极 ultimate 8

终极问题 ultimate question 7

语言 language 17

大众 the mass the public popular 12

社会 society 20

个人 individual(s) 8

灵魂 soul 9

边缘 edge 9

关系 relationship 17

媒体 media 6

文化 culture cultural 18

系统 system 8

无意义 meaningless 7

录像 video art 5

当代艺术 contemporary art 11

态度 attitude 8

作品 works 17

 

6,4      ‘June 4′ incident 1

天安门 Tian’anmen 1

社会主义 socialistic 1

政治体系 political system 1

政治 politics 3

意识形态 ideology 2

上层建筑 superstructure 2

 

play 7

hot 3

名气 成名 出名 知名fame (renowned famous reputation getting famous19

控制 control 2

新潮艺术 avant-garde art new art 2

马戏团 circus 4

技术 technique 4

机会 chance 2

圣人 saint 4

展览 the exhibition 24

中国 China 28

西方 West Western abroad westerners 14

变化改变 change shift 15

相对 relatively 10

new 17

快感 have fun 4

中国特色 Chinese characteristics 3

 

 

Source of keywords:

 

 

Q: What do you see the relation between contemporary art and the Chinese social reality in general.

 

A: If you compare now to the ’80s, I think there’s a major shift of attitude for many people, including myself. The way I see it, before the exhibition in Beijing (‘China/Avant-Garde’) in 1989, contemporary art or shall we say avant-garde art was basically regarded as a symbol of elite culture, which is to say that it was used to awaken the society and the public, and it’s a part of the intellectual and cultural history. Such an illusion came to an end after the ‘June 4′ incident on the Tian’anmen Square in 1989, as artists began to realize that pure art is only art, and it won’t do any good for social reforming, it’s just a slice of the society and is under the influence of popular culture to a large extent. To put it simply, let’s say video art, it’s not that video art was invented before popular culture and popular art, and this is true both in China and in the West. TV as a form of popular culture was born prior to video art, and then video artists began to work with this new medium/material to criticize popular culture. So it’s not like they’ve made a change on popular culture, despite the mutual influence and interaction of the two. So I’m thinking, ever since the ’90s or in the 21st century, the stance and attitude of contemporary art have gone through a lot of changes. Art has become less isolated, less closed, it is now relatively open and is willing to intervene in social issues and to talk to the public. Maybe a better way to put it is that it has become keener on taking advantage of public resources. The two exhibitions we did in Hangzhou since last year – ‘Something’s Happening‘ and ‘It’s All Right‘ – took that as the point of departure. Many of the participating artists came from Beijing and Shanghai, I think it’s safe to assume that they share this notion and have similar direction.

 

Q: Speaking of the West, do you think Chinese contemporary art still feels backward compared to the West? What’s your take on the relation between the two?

 

A: I don’t know whether ‘backward‘ is an appropriate word. It sounds quite stimulating and also hard to use it. The notion of backward/advanced doesn’t apply to art, it’s not sport games which you can measure who’s five seconds faster or slower than others. But I think the discourse is different. Western societies, relatively speaking, have an opener environment, with a lot of knowledge colliding and integrating with individuals and the society, whereas in China, art is basically individual endeavor and is relatively closed up. On the one hand, our educational system is a closed one. Take my generation (including many currently in their forties) for example, during our days in the academy of fine arts, painting is almost the only thing you can study, and there are few alternatives other than realistic painting, yet it’s a limited kind of realism. There was nothing one can do about it. So we ended up with a very narrow intellectual background upon graduation, both in terms of [technique] art language and media. It was very limited. This is quite different from western artists. When we were at school, there wasn’t much space for artistic expression, with very few possibilities to choose from, most of us felt distressed. After graduation, many started to rebel against that tradition. Rebellion is the most obvious characteristic of new art, that aside, there wasn’t much rational, self-conscious criticism against existing [norm and technique] art language. The rebellion we went through was a hybrid of many elements, we fought against the society, culture, tradition and education. Art in the ’80s was very high-strung and emotional, things have changed in the ’90s. A lot of people went abroad and began to learn more about the world, about the international scene, and domestic art schools relatively had less controlled atmosphere as well, with a lot of new majors and disciplines. But in my opinion, one thing remained unchanged: very few Chinese artists have this consciousness of interdisciplinary working method, which has been popular in the West. We know there are a lot of schools abroad in which people from various disciplines are brought together – philosopher, psychologist, art designer, industrial designer, electronic engineer, dynamicist, biologist – all these people working together on an interdisciplinary basis. The old notion of artist being an individual is out-of-date. But in China, this kind of I-am-an-artist way of thinking, or attitude is still dominant, and that’s how many artists position themselves, they take pride in that. So I’m thinking, the reason that westerners are paying a lot of attention to Chinese contemporary art has nothing to do with the art ecology as a whole, it’s the characteristics of our social culture (political system, market, politics) as manifested in art that intrigue them. It’s being gazed upon as a regional cultural phenomenon in the global cultural discourse. We are currently in an unequal relation when we try to have a conversation with the West, with South America, or Africa, of course it may be the same case in Africa, they probably have the same problems with us, maybe South America too. Some of these problems come from ourselves, and some might be external, objective factors.

 

Q: So what do you think about the current art education in China?

 

A: This is a heavy topic, because art education in China is completely different from that in the West. Education is all about ideology and superstructure in China, and this is especially true with art education. Why was the Cultural Revolution possible? It started as ideology and superstructure, schools, Red Guard……Compared to the West, Chinese educational system has it problem of space and rights, which is visible in individual education units. It’s a different system. In China we have scarce personal space and rights, which means that what you are allowed to do in school is limited. Still, I think there’s something one can achieve within this limited space. We all went through the school system, and we didn’t fancy it even when we were there. Art education in the present day, in my opinion, is still inhibited and problematic, despite its seemingly openness. A lot of superficial improvements are actually technical evolution rather than reform of the system itself. Things haven’t changed on a fundamental level. I have been teaching in this school for almost four years, and I’m thinking, with all these new disciplines and courses – including the New Media department I’m in – there isn’t much difference in terms of educational concept, method or model. This is true for many art academies in China. So I consider this to be a major problem. We are simply beating around the bushes in a tiny space, playing little tricks which we think as ‘within the boundaries‘, and doing something out of the country’s plan. I don’t know what is going to come in the end, but we are having fun in our own little territory. It’s tiresome, that’s for sure, because you have to deal with the whole system - in many cases you are not your own master, there’s nothing you can do about it! So my conclusion is, we have new bottles, but still the old wine, that’s the situation we are in now. The whole educational system has some big trouble! If the system remains the same, it doesn’t matter how many new courses or disciplines you add to the schools.

 

Q: Do you think it has anything to do with the reality of contemporary Chinese culture?

 

A: Yes it has, not only that, it’s also related to the whole social structure of China. China is a socialistic country with Chinese characteristics, isn’t it? It’s the same with education, education with Chinese characteristics. If we mention anything with Chinese characteristics and anyone with his own features, there’s not any leeway for discussion actually! For example, once I was in class and a student presented me his work, I thought there was something wrong with it, so I offered some suggestions, and he said: ‘I think my work is fine. This is exactly what I want.’ I had nothing to say, if it was what he had wanted, how could I take it away? Right? There was no room for discussion!

 

Q: Pathetic.

 

A: There are a slew of problems in China right now, social structure, family, ethic, etc. Actually culture and education are closely connected, the Chinese family structure has also influenced education, it’s very problematic. And there’s social system, which is way too complex! I really think Chinese teachers are facing the most complex problems in the world! Really! It’s your own fault to have gotten involved! Go to any place – Europe, America – and you’ll see how laid-back teachers are, even the directors. Being a director of school in America isn’t as tired as being a section chief here. But tired and busy we are, are we efficient? No, not at all!

 

采访对象:杨如海/Interviewed: Yang Ruhai

采访对象:杨如海

采访时间:200722日下午

采访地点:于北京西通县门

 

(农)村 (countryside) village 9

认可() recognition (acceptance level) 8

尝试 attempt (try experiment) 5

大众 the masses (public audience) 5

小众 small Circle of People 2

感觉 feeling feel 16

思考 思维 思想 thinking way of thinking 4

宽容 tolerant 8

宽容度 level of tolerance latitude 5

坚持 hold on to insisting 8

真诚 sincerity 7

感兴趣 interest interesting attracts 3

生活 live life 14

生存 living existence 6

状态 condition state the way 15

拍(摄) shoot filmmaking

 

中国 China 15

体制 system 17

改变 转变 变化)   change 16

标准 standard 11

影像 moving image video 12

现实 reality 3

流浪狗 stray dogs 1

circle 9

 

 

Q:请先谈一下你刚完成的作品拍摄的一些情况。

A:是刚在河北完的一个片子,大概算是一个多屏录像装置,是关于农村主人这样的一个主题的——可能很多依赖人生活农村,它们有生老病死,也有的被抛弃贩卖,在农村周围,除了人之外,像流浪狗,它们也有另外的一种生存状态,就基本上是这样的一个片子。

Q:就是说把主要关注点放在农村,是对人和动物之间生存状况的一种关注对吗?

A:对,其实这是从拍摄方面来讲的一个想法,另外一方面,可能针对的是形式上的,比如说对“记录片”的解释,什么才是一种生活记录?现在我可能会用另外一种概念去做,因为以前没有尝试过,另外,从生活中来讲的话,现在关注的东西可能离所谓的艺术圈远了一些吧,那些东西可能会更有意思,就是想,可以敲开一种感觉尝试一些不同宽容度的东西,这对我来说可能更感兴趣,而未必是绝对针对性的——未必是针对艺术圈来做东西。远离一种状态,可能更接近一种生活,自己对这种东西可能越来越感兴趣了

Q:在农村拍录像的时候,村民认为你们是电视台的,就是说和他们的沟通是不可能的?

A:不是说沟通不可能,其实我认为艺术这一块还是很小众的,很多时候是针对很小的受众群,所以有时候希望做一些宽容度更大的东西,哪怕一些跟艺术不相关的东西,去尝试做一些别的,这些东西可能带来另外的一种快乐。现在感到,在艺术思维之内去做东西很受局限,在很多方面无能为力,如果抬到一个所谓“乌托邦”的高度——其实很多时候是一种无能为力的乌托邦的概率,或者说是一种无能为力的乌托邦状态,但这样其实会延续很长时间,但是又有一个无法解决感觉

Q:你觉得主要还是呈现出你个人的一种什么样的状态?

A:这个不是太好说,作品呈现出来是由观众的,作品很难说是为而做的,做出来以后,自己随着时间的推移,会学着慢慢做完一个作品就遗忘一个作品,但作为观众方面,我不好说,观众可能会看到这个作品会而忽略掉它——很难说得非常准确,因为这可能是一个非常自由事情

Q:能讲下你去农村拍摄猫狗,和团队以外的其他有关人员交流的一些情况吗?

A:很简单,和他们交流的时候要忘记你的工作,你就是一个普通人,你跟他就是简单的认识,包括一些司机农民……他们家日常生活就这样,很人之常情的事情,不能因为你有某种想法,你做某些事情,你就是另外的一种感觉,而就是要入乡随俗

Q:谈一下你对现在一些艺术展览或艺术机构的一些看法。

A:现在各种展览越来越多,各种机构也越来越,都想做一些事情,但它们做事情和若干年前做事情的状态不一样,好像神没了,可能展览能做得很,像很多国际展览一样做得轰轰烈烈,热热闹闹,但很多东西没有精神了,但它可能在其他方面可能会更一点,某些展览里面有些个别艺术家做的作品是很的,但从整体来讲,就像审美……

Q:刚才都谈了你的创作和成长方面的问题,那么现在我们评论一些其它的事情,比如说“当代艺术”、“艺术”,还有“影像艺术”,你觉得它们对社会有些什么样的意义和作用?

A:这个问题真不好说,问题有点大,比较表面的说法,我觉得当代艺术一块,这么多年来其实有些人一直在,他们很多的都有一种思想改变,可能更多的是在思想思维意识上,还有很多的是在观念上做很大的努力改变了——比如中国教育学术艺术方面的很多东西,在这二三十年,大家的变化很大,大家的思维接受能力变化很大,之前说的“宽容度”和几十年前就有很大的不一样。我更感兴趣或者说自己挺感慨的一点,是自己从上学的时候看别人在做当代艺术,到自己感兴趣,然后参与,现在就是其中一份子,我感觉是很庆幸的,庆幸的是中国还是有这么一批人做当代艺术,我认为这些人是坚持自己理想的人,可以说他们是“知识份子”,或者说是“艺术家”,有这么一批人在做,至于他们做得成功与否?或所谓的达到什么状态?我觉得这个是其次,其实就好像是有另外一种“建筑”——可以说是一种无形思想建筑,它们在一砖一瓦的建起来,虽然很难说这个建筑盖到什么状态,但其实现在已经有这么一个东西在成立,这是一件挺感慨的事情,和几十年前有很大的变化

Q:影像艺术和当代艺术还有不同,它和社会的联系会否更紧密一些?

A:单从艺术来说,我觉得有一点——就是需要改变一点:“什么是影像”?在中国很多大家谈到电影的时候,都有一个基本的电影审美标准中国是一个所谓的叙事大国,很的电影是习惯性讲故事的电影——包括一些优秀业绩的中国电影,很多都是从叙事的角度的,但反过来说,在中国是不是有一些其它影像存在?就是说在大家认可的一种所谓标准电影,包括大家极力推荐形成的一种商业电影之外,很难说有没有另一种影像存在,它的生存可能性是不是有?这种东西要解决是靠意识,现在已经有很多进步的地方,我认为慢慢的大家已经不满足表面上、体制内存在的一些电影,大家满足不了了,慢慢地在改变,大家可能需要另外的一个雏形,到现在为止,我认为恰恰很多艺术家就在做这方面的尝试,他们做出来的影像作品未必是特别成熟的,但可能恰恰是起到一个承上启下的作用。

Q:别人会把你归纳在艺术电影里面是吧?

A:有人开玩笑说我是属于找骂的那种——在艺术圈说自己是电影的,在电影圈说自己是搞艺术的。我觉得都有问题,艺术也是强行的在坚持录像艺术标准,它所容纳的东西还是和电影区别的,反过来说,电影吸收了录像艺术,很多有先决意识的电影导演从艺术圈吸收了很多好的东西,包括商业片,很多商业广告都从艺术的艺术家的想法当中吸取了很多养分,但电影更类似工业产业,它需要一个制作过程,以前有人说电影落后于艺术若干年,其实是有道理的,从想法呈现出来到针对大众,它需要一个过程,但艺术家可以不闻不问,可以先知先做

Q:大家都面对这样一个问题,也就是从体制里往外走,是做好思想准备往里走,你对这种情况有什么看法?

A:大家有时候也会聊到这个问题,包括体制接纳,从根本上说很多东西没有太大改变,这种互相接纳接触或者说互动,用有些哥们讲的很硬的话说,在某些方面,比如进入体制内导演电影,如果你不改变自己就没有人能改变你,所以有很多坚持的东西可能会改变,做出来的东西其实是另外的一种东西,原来的初衷已有所改变改变之后就很难说,包括在体制内电影,我认为这是个误区,关键在于创作者本身的认可度在哪里?其实挺难的。

 

Interviewed: Yang Ruhai

Time: Afternoon, Feb. 2, 2007

Location: Beijing

 

 

(农)村 (countryside) village 9

认可() recognition (acceptance level) 8

尝试 attempt (try experiment) 5

大众 the masses (public audience) 5

小众 small Circle of People 2

感觉 feeling feel 16

思考 思维 思想 thinking way of thinking 4

宽容 tolerant 8

宽容度 level of tolerance latitude 5

坚持 hold on to insisting 8

真诚 sincerity 7

感兴趣 interest interesting attracts 3

生活 live life 14

生存 living existence 6

状态 condition state the way 15

拍(摄) shoot filmmaking

 

中国 China 15

体制 system 17

改变 转变 变化)   change 16

标准 standard 11

影像 moving image video 12

现实 reality 3

流浪狗 stray dogs 1

circle 9

 

 

Source of keywords:

 

 

Q: Would you please first talk about the shooting process of your recently completed film?

 

A: It’s a film that we just finished shooting in Hebei province. You can probably call it a multi-screen video installation. It’s about a village farmer and his dog. Maybe a lot of dogs live with people in the villages; they experience birth, old age, illness and death, and some are abandoned or sold. Around villages, besides people, are these stray dogs. They have their own kind of living condition. This is basically what the film is about.

 

Q: In other words, the main focus is on a village, and it’s a portrayal of the care for the living condition of men and animals, right?

 

A: Yes. Actually that is seen from a [filmmaker's] filmmaking point of view. On the other hand, what we are concerned about might be the form, such as an interpretation of the genre of “documentary” – what is a documentary of life? Now I might approach it with a different concept, because I have never tried it before. Besides, from the point of life, what I am concerned about now might have become less related to the art circle. But those things might be more interesting. I mean, I can open up some feelings to try something that has a different latitude. Personally, this might be more interesting. It doesn’t have to be aimed at the art circle. Getting away from a state of mind, I might be getting closer to a certain kind of life, and this kind of thing more and more attracts me now.

 

Q: When you were shooting in the villages, the villagers thought you guys were from the television station. Does it mean that it was not possible to communicate with them?

 

A: It’s not that communication was not possible. Actually I think this art is intended for a small circle of people, and often we are only targeting this very small audience group. So sometimes I wish to do something with wider latitude, even if it’s something unrelated to art. Try to do something different, which might bring us a different kind of pleasure. Now I do feel the limitation within the realm of aesthetic thinking; you’re quite helpless in many situations. If we elevate to a level of the so-called Utopia – very often it’s a helpless state of Utopia, which can last very long, and leave you [seeing] feeling no way out.

 

Q: So what kind of personal state do you think is presented?

 

A: It’s hard to say. A work is presented for the audience to see; it’s hard to say for whom you are making the work. After you finish it, with the passing of time, you learn to forget it once you finish it. But from the audience’s point of view, I can’t say… the audience might see it and ignore it – it’s difficult to put it into clear words, because it’s a very free thing.

 

Q: Can you talk about and how you communicated with people outside of your crew, when shooting those cats and dogs in the villages?

 

A: It’s very simple. You have to forget your work when communicating with them. You’re just an ordinary guy, and you are just an acquaintance with them, including drivers, farmers… You stay in their houses. Just routine daily life, very natural and normal. You shouldn’t feel yourself different from them just because you have some ideas or you do certain type of work. You’ve got to do as the Romans do.

 

Q: Please talk about your view on some of these art shows or art organizations today.

 

A: Now we have an increasing amount of exhibitions and art organizations. All of them want to do something, but the way they do things are different from several years ago. It seems that the form is still there but the spirit is gone. Maybe the exhibitions are big, and as dynamic and vigorous as many international exhibitions, but many things have lost their spirit. Maybe they are stronger in some aspects – some works by certain individual artists might be very good, but, on the whole, like aesthetic…

 

Q: You’ve talked about your art and the development in the realm of art. Now let’s talk about other issues, such as “contemporary art,” “art,” and “art of moving images” – what significance and function do they have for the society?

 

A: This is really hard to say. The question is a little too big. On a superficial level, I think some people have been devoting themselves to the field of contemporary art all these years. Most of them have changed in terms of their ways of thinking, and many have made much effort to change conceptually, such as many aspects of education, academics, and art in China. In the past 20 or 30 years, people have changed drastically, and their degree of tolerance in terms of way of thinking has also changed considerably. The latitude that I mentioned earlier is now very different from a few decades ago. What I’m more interested in, or maybe what I am touched, is that I have been very fortunate – from watching others involving contemporary art when I was in school, to the present moment where I’m one of them. It’s fortunate that there is such a group of people doing contemporary art in China. I think these people are people who hold on to their ideals. We can call them intellectuals or artists. As for the question of whether they are successful, or what they have achieved, I think these are secondary. It’s as if there is another kind of “architecture” – you might call it an invisible architecture of ideas, which has been built brick by brick. Even though you can’t really say how far it has gone in terms of construction, but indeed there is such a thing being established. This is something that touches me, and it evidences a large change from decades ago.

 

Q: Does the art of moving images have a tighter connection with the society?

 

A: From the vantage point of art, I think one thing needs to be changed: “What is moving image?” When people talk about film in China, they have a basic standard of film aesthetics. China is a so-called “Narrative Giant.” Many Chinese films just tell stories habitually, including some Chinese films with successful box office– they are all shot from a narrative point of view. But on the other hand, are there other kinds of moving images in China? That is to say, outside of the so-called standard films, including the kind of commercial films that have been highly promoted, it’s hard to say whether other kinds of moving images exist. Is there any possibility for such existence? Solving this problem really requires will power. There has been progress in many areas. I think people have slowly grown to be dissatisfied with the superficial films made within the system. People can no longer be satisfied and they are slowly changing. People might have a demand for an alternative embryo. Up till now, I think many artists are doing exactly this type of experiments. The [images] video works that they produce might not be very mature, but they function as a connecting link.

 

Q: People would classify your film as “art film,” right?

 

A: Someone once made fun of me by saying that I was the type of person who is asking for criticism – that I say I’m a filmmaker in the art circle, and say I’m an artist in the film circle. I think there are problems both ways. The art circle has been insisting on a standard of video art by force; what they accept is still different from films. On the other hand, film has absorbed video art, and many conceptually advanced directors have learned a lot from art circles, including commercial film directors. Many commercials have gotten nutrition from artists’ ideas. But film-making is more like an industry; it requires a production process. People used to say that film lags behind art by several years. It does make sense, because from the presentation of ideas to facing the public audience, you need a long process. But artists don’t have to face that, they can know first, feel first, and do first.

 

Q: Everyone is facing this same problem, i.e., walking out of the system is getting psychologically prepared for going inside it. What do you think of such a situation?

 

A: We often talk about this, including the acceptance by the system. Essentially, lots of things don’t change much. This kind of mutual acceptance, contact, or interaction – as some of my buddies very harshly put it: as you go inside the system as film directors, if you don’t change yourself, then no one can change you. So a lot of things that you hold on to will be changed. What you produce will come out being something different. Your initial ideas are changed, and it’s hard to predict once they change, including filmmaking inside the system. Therefore, I see this as a long-standing misconception. The thing lies in where the artists acceptance level is. It’s tough.

 

采访对象:徐星辰/Interviewed: Xu Xingchen

采访对象:徐星辰

采访时间:2007124日下午

采访地点:于上海莫干山路比翼艺术中心

 

兴趣 interest 25

影响 influence affected 12

关系 relationship relation 15

自己 self own 24

个人 individual personally 20

个人化 individualize 3

变化 changes (noun)     15

改变(变 变化) change (verb) changing evolves 4

调整 adjust 4

社会 society social 12

习惯 habit used to 14

怀疑 doubt 2

理解 understanding 5

反应(映) reaction react response 3

 

不自由 non-free no freedom lack absence of freedom unfree 5

政府 government 1

政治 political politics 3

体制 political system 3

 

无用功 useless labor 1

惯性 inertia 2

当代 contemporary 33

目的性 purpose purposeful purposelessness agenda-driven 5

批判 criticism 3

可能性 possibility 5

刺激 stimulation stimulate unexciting 3

中国 China Chinese 10

西方 the West 0

国外外国)  foreign abroad 1

腐败 corruption 1

圈子 circle 2

产业园区 industry zones 1

城市建筑 urban architecture 1

规划 urban planning 1

 

 

 

Q:你的艺术创作主要关注一些什么问题,针对一些什么东西?

A:基本上还是凭兴趣没有一个特别明确的东西,兴趣。比如说兴趣的,刺激自己的,自己能有反映的等等,基本上大的方向都是这样的。比如说很早的一个录像作品——《彩虹》,就是敲打背部,背部变红的一个录像,每个人都会有反应的,都会知道这个是疼的,这个就是很共性的东西,很正常的都会有。

Q:你觉得艺术商业化对整个当代艺术有什么影响?

A:我觉得艺术家不会受到什么影响,应该是良性的。

Q:你觉得艺术家在社会里是一个什么样的角色?

A:不知道,我希望艺术家能有一些功能正常一点的角色,他就是艺术家,但你无法肯定中国艺术家是不是达到这些东西,或者说呈现了这些东西,目前为止更多的是商业上成功吸引关注,并不是说不要努力去达到这样,也不是说很悲观,这是事实,你看到的大量事实就是这样。

Q:你自己的定位是怎样的?

A:就像前面说的,就是凭着兴趣工作,至于有没有反应,和社会有没有什么关系就不是我能控制的。当代艺术相对来说毕竟还是小圈子的一个形态,整个社会变化会导致艺术结构的一些变化

Q:这和你的作品都是很有关系的吧?

A:兴趣——我认为除了一贯性的东西,比如爱吃肉,或爱穿红颜色的衣服的这种惯性兴趣外,很多东西都是因为时间变化的,你也在变化兴趣肯定是有偶然性的,而且偶然性是一个很重要的东西,你不是建立在一个全知全能的基础上看的,你是一直在变化看世界的,有增加也有减少,所以这个东西肯定是偶然的。

Q:上海算是中国最开放最现代化的地方,公众和当代文化相对别的地方有它的特点,你觉得上海这个城市对于当代艺术来说环境如何?你就当代艺术目前在上海被接受,被理解或受到妨碍的情况谈谈。

A:都是起(轰)哄北京也是,纽约也是,当然有热闹不热闹之分,或机会多少的区别。对我来说,从小生活在这里,比较习惯这里,上海比较安静,可以不用整天是“艺术家”,可以凭着自己兴趣玩玩,很轻松。上海艺术家人数少,机会多,机会多你就有机会。其实很多人对上海文化历史理解还是基于30年代相对开放混乱认识,实际上我工作范围内接触到——包括上海文化工作,甚至整个社会环境目的性太明确,导致缺乏相对的一种无目的性,所谓缺乏无目的性就是没有无聊的东西,没有太随性的东西,缺少感性的和感情方面的东西,那么相对于当代艺术来说,它就变成目的性非常明确的一种结构,从文化形态管理机制来说,目前为止是缺少包容性的,比如政府能否帮助艺术家?能否提供一些条件?都没有,我们看到上海号称有七十五个类似于莫干山路(50号)这样的产业园区,我觉得就差不多都是把广告公司从楼里搬出来而已,在外面又划了一些楼,就这个区别。至于说到对于当代艺术展览管理,我觉得还在过程中没有一个明确规定,和明确的要求,现在还处于——凭管理人员个人情绪上的或兴趣上的好恶来判断展览能否公开,能否继续做的阶段,从某种角度讲,我也很理解,这毕竟需要一个过程

Q:上海是个很时尚的城市,当代艺术同时尚的关系——涉及到喜欢当代艺术喜欢时尚的应该都是年轻人,你觉得在当代艺术里,时尚文化和当代艺术的关系如何?

A:当代艺术本身就面临着被流行和被孤立,或者说不被理解这样的几种情况,我觉得在上海,就比翼艺术中心这几年的工作情况,观众越来越,观众当然需要去引导,需要一定的教育背景,知识积累等等,很多年轻观众还是持一种很表面理解的态度,只接触到某个程度就不会往下去思考面对了。当然我觉得这个问题不是当代艺术的问题和原因,这是整个社会,从教育到整个体制,到对于文化重视各个方面的原因,

Q:现在一致感觉中国当代艺术很火,而很多艺术家自己感觉好作品越来越少,你怎么看?

A:我觉得很脆弱,整个环境脆弱,当然这种脆弱是相对的,不会垮,就我的工作范围来说,我觉得艺术家越来越少,真的是越来越少,在思考问题的、在努力工作的、能够安静下来不受外界影响工作的艺术家越来越少,当然你也看到很多像你这个年龄(指采访者徐坦)的艺术家……按我的说法就是腐败,没办法,唯一能做的就是不管别人,坚持自己的,刚才说的还是从一个很大的范围,说到创作国内艺术家感性不够,容易挤到一个路子上去,我相信很多人状态还没有调整好,还没有走出来,所以现在看起来很拥挤,在一条路上。另外一方面国内现在也没什么好展览——很少

Q:就我的了解,我认为你的一些东西还是很明确的,不论你是否愿意,你还是在大环境里充当了一个角色。

A:你说到政治,我有另外一个看法,就是我们的创作环境有很明确的限制,有些东西你不能说,有些东西你不能做,那么我看到的大环境,需要一个时间,但是这样的东西其实对于整个艺术创作是很大的一个危害,它导致有一些范围不能去触及,我们并不是提倡艺术家一定要对社会责任,一定要对政治提出看法,不是这个意思,但是它是一种很明确不自由,这种不自由谁都明白,就我个人来说,我现在明显觉得这种不自由让我的工作范围没办法展开,始终只能在某一些地方兜圈子,不能够更随性一点,我觉得这是一个很大的问题,但没办法,没足够的勇气或者说没胆子去做,其实这种东西很抽象,无法提出一个根本的看法,作品毕竟是一个表面的东西,但又反映一个根本看法,这种根本的看法当然涉及政治,涉及到对社会权力这种东西的看法,但没办法表现出来,只能靠大家聊天的时候来讨论,来交流,但不能通过和作品之间的关系呈现,这是比较难受的,不自由的,不意识到不自由也无所谓,但创作中碰到一些这样的事情的时候,就会觉得这条路几十年来还不知道不能这么去,就很悲哀,比较傻B的想法,就是想也许这就是一种可能性,这可能性一直不让你,那你就,只能说是已经到了比较变态的想法。

Q:有点悲观的意味。

A:不是悲观,比如说现在中国城市建筑规划这样的东西,有人说很难看,对我来说,要过渡到——要看一看它究竟能造成多难看。我会随环境改变,一直改变想法,所以很难有一个明确的东西,整体来说中国现实汹涌,太了,中国艺术家创作在里面,整体来说就是在做无用功,非常的

Q:艺术家在做无用功是吗?

A:整个看起来,你会觉得这个东西不刺激,就是没反应艺术家在那里工作——中国没有很好的抽象体系艺术,大家都在批判,但批判里面很多东西都是的,都是非常虚伪的,那怎么搞?管不了那么多了。

Q:你在艺术里用的是兴趣,实际上你觉得在艺术工作当中感性很重要,是吗?

A:对,基本上处于想怎么样就怎么样的状态,然后不要被我们的艺术住,你应该是在做艺术而不是艺术做你

 

Interviewed: Xu Xingchen

Time: Afternoon, January 24, 2007

Location: BizArt Centre, Moganshan Road, Shanghai

 

兴趣 interest 25

影响 influence affected 12

关系 relationship relation 15

自己 self own 24

个人 individual personally 20

个人化 individualize 3

变化 changes (noun)     15

改变(变 变化) change (verb) changing evolves 4

调整 adjust 4

社会 society social 12

习惯 habit used to 14

怀疑 doubt 2

理解 understanding 5

反应(映) reaction react response 3

 

不自由 non-free no freedom lack absence of freedom unfree 5

政府 government 1

政治 political politics 3

体制 political system 3

 

无用功 useless labor 1

惯性 inertia 2

当代 contemporary 33

目的性 purpose purposeful purposelessness agenda-driven 5

批判 criticism 3

可能性 possibility 5

刺激 stimulation stimulate unexciting 3

中国 China Chinese 10

西方 the West 0

国外外国)  foreign abroad 1

腐败 corruption 1

圈子 circle 2

产业园区 industry zones 1

城市建筑 urban architecture 1

规划 urban planning 1

 

 

 

 

Source of keywords:

 

Q: What’s your major concerns as an artist?

 

A: I just go where my interests lead me to. There’s no clear agenda, and my interests are changing. Things that interest me, stimulate me or trigger reaction from me are among those which set the direction of my artistic creation. For instance, an early video work of mine called Rainbow features the video of a person’s back being beaten until it turns red. Everyone will react to the piece, as they know that it hurts. It’s something that people have in common, nothing special about that.

 

Q: What kind of influence does the commercialization of art have on contemporary art as a whole?

 

A: I don’t think good artists will be [effected] affected, it’s a positive thing.

 

Q: What do you see as the artist’s role in a society?

 

A: Don’t know, I hope artists can function in a way that’s meant to be, i.e., as an artist. But you are not sure whether Chinese artists have achieved that, or whether they have managed to at least present themselves as such. So far what we have seen are mostly commercial success, buzz and attention. It’s not that these things are not worth for the effort or we are in a pathetic situation. These are simply facts.

 

Q: How do you position yourself?

 

A: Like I said just now, I follow my interest. Audience’s response and relation with the society are out of my range of control. Contemporary art, relatively speaking, is still a small circle, and social changes will trigger changes in the art world.

 

Q: I suppose all these are more or less present in your works?

 

A: Interest evolves with time, except for a few consistent habitual ones (prefer meat to vegetable, like to wear red, etc.). A person evolves as well. Interest has a random dimension, and randomness is important. You don’t see the world in an omni-perspective, you observe the world while changing, sometimes you expand, sometimes you diminish, so this is definitely a random thing.

 

Q: Shanghai is regarded as the most open and modernized place in China, the public and the contemporary culture there are quite distinctive. How would you evaluate Shanghai as an environment for contemporary art? Please talk something about the reception, understanding or obstruction of contemporary art in Shanghai.

 

A: It’s all hype, no matter Shanghai, Beijing or New York. Of course there’s the difference of activeness and opportunity. For me, since I grew up here, I‘m used to it. Shanghai is pretty much a quiet city, you don’t have to wear the artist’s charade everyday, instead, you can just follow your interest and have fun, it’s relaxing. There fewer artists in Shanghai so each of us has more opportunity. Actually a lot of people still perceive the culture and history of Shanghai according to some unclear notion of the 1930s, in fact within my range of sight, the culture-related works in Shanghai and even the whole society are too purposeful, lacking a certain purposelessness, by which I mean there’s very few stupid stuff, very few light-hearted, emotional stuff. Therefore, contemporary art has turned into this thing with an agenda-driven structure, it lacks broadness and openness in terms of administrative mechanism. For instance, what can our government do to help artists? Is it possible for them to provide certain preconditions? No, not at all. There are seventy-five so-called ‘industry zones‘ a la 50 Moganshan Road, but I think they are merely a way of moving all those advertising companies out of the old buildings and planning some new buildings. As for the management of contemporary art exhibition, I think a lot of things are still in the premature phase, there are no clear-cut rules or requirements, and the managing individual‘s personal preferences and emotional status are the main criterion on whether an exhibition should be allowed to happen. From a certain perspective, I do understand the current situation, a process is inevitable after all.

 

Q: Shanghai is also a fashionable city, let’s talk about the relation between contemporary art and fashion: both have younger generation as their major target group. What’s your take on the relation between fashion culture and contemporary art?

 

A: Contemporary art itself is facing the problem of popularization and isolation, or lack of understanding. The case of Shanghai, take BizArt Centre for example, they have seen declining audience in recent years. Of course audience need guidance, educational background and accumulation of knowledge, etc. A lot of younger audience‘s understanding of contemporary art are superficial, they tend to stop probing deeper after reaching a certain level. Granted, this is not the problem of contemporary art itself, it has more to do with the whole society, from education to the whole political system, to the status of culture in the country.

 

Q: Everybody knows that Chinese contemporary art is currently a hot topic, yet many artists are having difficulties producing good works, what do you think of that?

 

A: I think the whole environment is fragile, of course this is a relative way of putting it, and I don’t think things are gonna collapse any time soon. Within my range of work, I found that the number of artists has been decreasing, really. Thinking, hard-working, self-sufficient and focused artists are getting fewer and fewer. Of course there are also a lot of artists of your (the interviewer Xu Tan) age……I would call this corruption, and there’s nothing you can do about it except for sticking to your own and ignoring others. Now let’s get back to art creation itself, I think Chinese artists in general lack fine sensibility, they would often swarm to the same style or direction. I believe that many people have not yet fully adjusted their mentality and are still working within a fixed norm. So when you look at it, it seems that they are all jamming on the same road.

 

Also, we don’t have much good exhibition in China now, very few.

 

Q: According to my knowledge, you are quite clear-cut in some of your art works. Intentional or not, you play a role in this bigger environment.

 

A: Since you mentioned politics, I have another point of view. I think our environment has casted some restriction to art in an explicit way. There are something that you can’t say or do. So the bigger environment as I see it still has a long way to go. But this kind of thing is actually extremely harmful to art making, because it defines some untouchable zones. It’s not like we are advocating for artist-as-social-activist or artist-making-political-statement, certainly not. But this situation is apparently unfree, everybody understands that. Personally speaking, I now have a strong feeling that this lack of freedom has crippled my work, I find it hard to reach out to a wider range and to follow where my heart leads me to. This is a big problem for me, but I’m at my wit’s end, and I don’t have enough courage to break away from it. These things are abstract and it’s impossible to have a definitive view on it. After all, art work is the superficial manifestation of fundamental ideas, and these ideas are naturally connected with politics and the view on society and power. They are, however, not allowed to be presented in art, so they ended up in the form of casual chatting rather than being manifested through the relation between different works of art. This is such a morass, there’s no freedom at all. Somehow it doesn’t really matter if you are not aware of this absence of freedom, but when you encounter such things, you’ll feel sad about the fact that we are not even aware of the invalidity of this approach in the past few decades. One stupid way of looking at it is to take it as one possibility which has been shunning you all the time, so you keep waiting. I have to say this kind of thinking is almost getting pervert.

 

Q: It’s pessimistic.

 

A: No it’s not pessimistic. For instance, some people criticize the urban architecture and planning in China for their ugliness, but for me, the better approach to this phenomenon would be ‘to see how ugly they can be.’ Both me and my ideas change along with the environment, so it’s hard to have anything fixed. The reality in China as a whole is too powerful, Chinese artists are doing useless labour, they are too weak.

 

Q: You think artists’ endeavour are labouring in a useless way?

 

A: From a larger perspective, you’ll see how unexciting the whole scene is. No reaction. Artists are working in the scene, and everybody is criticizing that we don’t have really good abstract art tradition, but many of these criticism are fake and hypocritical. What can you do? Not much, really. So better forget about it.

 

Q: You follow your interests when doing art, and you think sensibility is very important for an artist, right?

 

A: Yes, basically I just do whatever I feel like doing. We should try to free ourselves from the limitation of art, after all, it’s you who’s making art, not the other way around.

 

采访对象:谢方明/Interviewed: Xie Fangming

采访对象:谢方明

采访时间:2007129日下午

采访地点:于北京798洞房咖啡

 

集体 group 15

利益 profit 4

社会 society social 13

生活 life 5

公众 public 6

大众 the masses 2

普通人 ordinary person 6

别人 others other people someone else somebody else 15

自己 self 22

关系 connection (relationship) to do with relations 20

有关 related 9

当代 the state of contemporary contemporary 17

 

严打 crackdowns 1

政府 government 2

 

“do” engage in 5

兴趣 interest interested 9

prosperous hyped 3

circle 8

圈子 circle 2

过瘾 high 3

流行 popular trendyfad trendiness 3

money 4

猥琐 indecency 2

 

 

Q:先谈下你对中国当代艺术现状的大概印象。

A:全局的东西挺不好说的,我只是觉得有点,类似于集体活动很多,除此之外我没有什么特别的看法,因为我们平时看到的只是一些很流行的东西。

Q:你觉得流行跟艺术有什么关系呢?

A:艺术……我们本来也不知道究竟什么才叫艺术,就是互相在利用嘛,因为大家知道有艺术这么一个事情,然后就会利用它去做一些跟利益有关的事情,如果大家都瞄准一个东西,……除了这个以外,艺术流行本来就不矛盾,就是一个事情的……就是说利益艺术发生关系以后,就可能是流行

Q:你刚才说觉得中国当代艺术很,指的是一些什么方面的东西?

A:那是外因的问题,跟内因没有太多的关系,也就是别人需要别人利益在中国当代社会里边发生了一些作用,有时候是国外的或者什么东西,它就会投入很多的关注经营这个东西的人也了,然后现在好像没有什么人不中国或中国的艺术,哪都谈,其实这个就跟谈开矿——哪儿适合开矿是一个道理,但是能不能开出什么东西来就不好说,但是作为内因呢?我觉得中国当代艺术自己内部远远不到那个能力,就是没有这个能量,只能说是一个外因使它起来的,就好像是一个洗衣机一样,把衣服扔进去,实际上是靠外边的那些滚筒在,然后里边的衣服看起来才得这么快,实际上就是自己没有动力

Q:你怎样看待北京的艺术

A:北京有很多圈子,但是这些集体,我发现,主要的一个还是熟人集体,就是大家关系,一堆朋友集体……其实我觉得好像主要就是这个集体吧,还有另外的一种可能就是跟批评家或者策展人关系近一点的集体,那个就可能有点动机,或者还有一种就是可能跟画廊近一点的集体,比如说画廊的几个老板或者代理人,有的艺术家就跟他们关系得好或者有合作,其实这就是一个利益关系,然后可能在北京,很多人都是外地人,大家处于孤独的情境,要互相支持一下……从这个角度来看的话,就构成像是一个办事处集体,就这两种集体

Q:就是说这边很多人的状况下,每人都只是大众的一员,都不重要?

A:我觉得这个状态就是最好的,就是没有谁在里边真正就感受自己牛逼,没有一个人,北京……因为任何资源来了以后,马上就消失在……就跟水倒在沙子里面一样,马上就消失了,你看不到东西。

Q:实际你在北京就是生活艺术圈里面?

A:差不太多,你真的想要跑到别的圈子里面,其实你会觉得他们的那种玩法不是你——不是接受不接受的问题,比如说我见到的那种电影圈,我觉得他们那种的程度就是比普通任何一个艺术家都还要至少上几大截,我就觉得没法……听他们的故事,听他们讲——比如他们还讲电影,后来天哪我就着急呀,真的比一个门外汉听起来还要着急,所以艺术家其实相对来说还比较有点像知识分子,虽然……因为他都很注意自己的那些构造,怎么构造,怎么塑造自己,他知道,这个我觉得还不错,艺术家相对来说还算可爱好玩一点儿吧。

Q:你刚才是否说这个社会状况对你的创作没有什么影响

A:怎么说呢?有些东西不一定有直接的影响,但有的东西也会有很直接的影响,……比如说北京有时到了那种紧张的时候,类似于严打这样的情况,就开始有点白色恐怖的感觉了,你就会觉得有影响。除此以外,影响是间接的。

Q:你刚才说,作为一般的中国公众不是很容易理解你的艺术,而你也不是很在意这种与他们的互动吗?

A:不是,不止是指我的作品,很多艺术家的作品都不会被理解,这是很正常的,因为首先你不是普通人——不能这么说,首先不是别人,你就不可能完全做出让别人兴趣的事情,只有看你做出的东西,别人会不会感兴趣,只能是这样,就是别人主动的,被动的,等于你只能在那里做裸体表演,但是要看别人对你的裸体有没有兴趣而已。

Q:在来北京之前就已经在从事绘画了吧?这些年来整个中国社会环境以及公众当代艺术

看法都有所改变,从感性的角度谈谈你这方面的感受。

A:这是个好问题,其实我觉得观众这么多年还是变得训练有素吧,在北京可能都还是有喜欢艺术的观众吧,会老受影响,这里展览比较,包括一些政府办的各种展览,比如美国博物馆收藏展,或者意大利文艺复兴的作品展,还有俄罗斯19世纪的画展,乱七八糟的展览很多,这样其实观众他慢慢地接受——他不一定真的喜欢,但是他接受这种情况……他觉得很丰富,虽然不见得就更,但他更宽容了,而我觉得现在当代艺术方面,观众就没法训练,因为如果是处在现在这个社会机制社会状况,人不容易去理解什么叫当代,首先先不讨论什么是当代艺术,就连一个,作为一个普通人,他连自己在这个社会需要什么他都不知道,那他怎么知道什么是当代艺术呢?现在中国越来越多的是培养准职业化的等于社会劳力……普遍的年轻人都时刻准备着去投身于各种一天12个小时工作的那种状况,准职业化的或者是传销的,对自己生活没有想象,对艺术确实很陌生,但是还有一点儿好的,他可以接受你给他的东西。观众有时会跟你谈论艺术的很多……这个艺术是做什么的?你画过人体没有?你画人体什么感觉呀?或者你这个画还能卖吗?反正公众的那种猥琐感是最……就是普通人猥琐感比艺术家显得强烈得多,就是喜欢问来问去的。

Q:艺术市场现在是比较的现象,你觉得它对你的艺术创造有些什么影响

A:如果说我要接受那么多定单的话,那肯定会有影响,当然那个时候,你有这么多的时候,你还想不想画画?你会觉得画画是多么笨重的事情,你有这么多的时候你就不需要自己画了,你完全可以让别人了,因为那个时候你的兴趣……是别的事情让你HIGH了,而不是你的让你HIGH了,就是HIGH 了。

 

Interviewed: Xie Fangming

Time: Afternoon, Jan. 29, 2007

Location: Cave Cafe, 798 Art District, Beijing

 

 

集体 group 15

利益 profit 4

社会 society social 13

生活 life 5

公众 public 6

大众 the masses 2

普通人 ordinary person 6

别人 others other people someone else somebody else 15

自己 self 22

关系 connection (relationship) to do with relations 20

有关 related 9

当代 the state of contemporary contemporary 17

 

严打 crackdowns 1

政府 government 2

 

do” engage in 5

兴趣 interest interested 9

prosperous hyped 3

circle 8

圈子 circle 2

过瘾 high 3

流行 popular trendyfad trendiness 3

money 4

猥琐 indecency 2

 

 

Source of keywords:

 

 

Q: First, what’s your overall impression of the current state of contemporary art in China?

 

A: It’s hard to talk about the entire situation. I just feel it’s a little hyped. There is a lot of group activity. Other than that, there is nothing special I want to say, because what we usually see are just very trendy things.

 

Q: What do you think is the relation between the fashion and art?

 

A: Art… at first we didn’t exactly know what art is. It’s just taking advantage of one another. People know there’s such a thing called art, and then use it do certain things related to profit. If everybody aims at the same thing… Other than that, there is no conflict between art and fad, it’s the same thing. In other words, after profit and art make a connection, trendiness is the result.

 

Q: You said earlier that you feel contemporary art in China is very hyped. What aspects were you referring to?

 

A: It’s a matter of external factors, and has little to do with internal factors. It’s other people’s demands. Other people‘s profit has made a certain impact on contemporary Chinese society. Sometimes, something from overseas pays a lot of attention to the contemporary Chinese art. And more and more people are managing the circulation of the works of contemporary art in China. Now, everyone is talking about China, or Chinese art. In fact, this is the same thing as mining – where is suitable for mining? It’s not certain whether you can mine something good. As for internal factors, I think contemporary Chinese art is far, far away from being capable on such a level. It doesn’t have that energy. We can only say that it’s the external factors that make it run. It’s like a laundry machine – you throw your clothes in, and it’s only the tumbler that makes the laundry appear to be spinning so fast. The fact is, it doesn’t have that momentum in itself.

 

Q: What’s your view on the art circle in Beijing?

 

A: There are lots of circles in Beijing. But I found that the main circle is a group of close friends with good friendship. I think that’s probably the main group. Another possible group is the one [that's closer to] in close relations with the critics and curators – there’s some possible motives involved. Or there is a group that’s closer to the galleries, like a few gallery owners and agents. And some artists have a good relationship or collaboration with them, which is in fact a profit relationship. And in Beijing, many artists here are migrants. People need mutual support when in solitude. If seen from this angle, there forms a group that’s like an administration office for non-locals. Those are the two types of groups.

 

Q: So you’re saying that under most circumstances here in Beijing, each artist is merely a member of a group, and unimportant in himself?

 

A: I feel this is the best state, that is, no one feels himself to be really formidable, not a single one. Because when resources come, it dissolves immediately… just like water poured into sand – it’s gone right away. You can’t see anything.

 

Q: You are living, as a matter of fact, in art circle?

 

A: More or less. If you really go to other circles, you’ll find that their game ruled are not suitable for you, and it’s not really a matter of acceptance. For example, the film circle that I saw; I feel that kind of weakness is even much more severe than any one of us artists. I just couldn’t bear listening to the kind of stories they tell. And if they even talked about film – for Christ’s sake, it got me really impatient, even more impatient than a complete outsider. So, in comparison, artists are somewhat more like intellectuals, although… Because artists are concerned about how he is structured, how to shape himself. I think this at least is good. Artists are relatively nice, and have more fun.

 

Q: Did you just say that the state of the society has no impact on your art?

 

A: How shall I put it… Certain things don’t influence you directly, but some other things do. For example, sometimes Beijing goes into a state of tension, like during government crackdowns. Then you start to feel a bit like “white terror”. Then you feel you are influenced. Other than that, the influence is indirect.

 

Q: You said that the general public in China can’t easily understand your art, and you don’t really care for such interaction, right?

 

A: No, not only my work. Most artists’ works are not understood. That is very normal. First of all, you’re not an ordinary person – no, I can’t put it that way – you’re not someone else, so you cannot create something that would fully interest somebody else. You can only see if others are interested in something you make. It can only be like this; that is, others are active, and you are passive. All you can do is to do a performance in nude, and the question remains whether people are interested in your nudity. That’s all.

 

Q: You have been doing painting before coming to Beijing, right? Over years, the social circumstances and the public have changed their views on contemporary art. Please comment on this from a more emotional vantage point.

 

A: This is a good question. Actually, I feel the audience has been well trained over all these years. In Beijing there is still audience who likes art. They are influenced because there are more exhibitions here, including government sponsored exhibitions, such as the exhibition from American museums, the exhibition on Italian Renaissance, and the exhibition on 19th-century Russian painting – all this hodgepodge of exhibitions. So the audience comes to accept them gradually – he might not really enjoy them, but he accepts the situation. He feels its richness. He might not understand it better, but he is more tolerant. In contrast, in the realm of contemporary art, the audience simply cannot be trained. Because under this particular social system and social condition at the present moment, it’s difficult for people to understand what is “contemporary.” First, put aside the question of what contemporary art is. Just as a person, an ordinary person, he doesn’t even know what he needs in this society. How can he know what contemporary art is? Now in China we see more and more training in the quasi-occupational social labor. The average young people getting prepared for the dedication into these 12-hour work day situations, either quasi-occupational or those of pyramid selling. He has no imagination about his own life, he is a stranger to art, yet one thing is good – he can accept whatever you give him.

 

There are lots of audience who talks to you about art… What is this art for? Have you painted the human body before? What do you feel when painting the human body? Can you make money at all with this painting? Anyway, the public‘s appetite for [triviality] indecency is much stronger than that of the artist. They really enjoy asking about everything.

 

Q: The art market is very “prosperous” now. How does it affect your art creation?

 

A: If I were to accept that many orders for works, then it’ll certainly have an impact. Of course, by then, when you have so much money, will you still want to paint? You’ll feel painting is such a clumsy job. When you have so much money, you wouldn’t need to paint yourself; you could totally have someone else do it for you. Because by then, it’s the other things that get you high. You would no longer get high on your painting; you’d get high on money.

 

 

采访对象:汪关征/Interviewed: Wang Guanzheng

采访对象:汪关征

采访时间200723日中午

采访地点:于北京SOHO现代城草绿2607

整体 totality total picture overall 12

集体(主义) collectives collectivity 11

一致 homogeneity homogenous 7

时间 time period period of time 15

社会 society social societal 26

个人 individual individualistic 30

经验 experience 13

公共 public 11

大众 public (populace)   15

倾向() tendency inclination 7

语言 language 9

怀疑 doubt suspicion 5

质疑 suspicion question questioning 10

方法 method way  17

方式 manner way 43

(有)问题 problem questionable issue 54

() change become modification 8

状态 status 8

秩序 order 8

判断 judgment judges 20

创造() creative creativity 4

知识(分子) knowledge intellectuals 11

明确()   clarify clarity clear 20

针对 focus 9

角度 angles 5

态度 attitude stance 9

身份 identity 22

后身份 post-identity 9

可能性 possibilities 14

话语 discourse 5

权力 power 5

实验 experiment 6

国家 nation 6

概念 concept

 

 

独立 independent 1

意识形态 ideology ideologism 11

安全 safe unsafe safety 4

审批制度 censorship system 1

 

 

 

 

市场 market 8

传统 traditional 5

中国 China 31

money wealthy 2

机会 opportunity 8

诱惑 temptation 1

post 33

关系 relationship 39

生存谋生 survive living 4

商业的 commercial 2

Q:请汪老师先讲一下你对现在中国当代艺术发展现状的看法。

A:所以说从宏观上来谈,我觉得可能现在总的来讲就是一个发展过程,因为我觉得这个过程就是由一个整体怎么过渡到去认识不同的艺术家和不同的艺术,我觉得远远还没有过渡到这一步,因为我觉得一个国家的当代艺术以国家形式出现可能有利有弊吧,有可能是会得到更多的人或更多的关注,不利的一点就是它只能以一个整体出现,那么对我来讲,我认为这是个问题,因为我觉得这也是传统艺术当代艺术的一个区别,你想想十几年前,欧洲对中国的艺术都有一个整体印象,如果我们继续坚持这个整体的话,可能它只是替换了某一种材料和某一种形象,比如说在一段时间是龙、是凤凰、是竹子,是陶瓷、丝绸,最可能用一些其它的材料把这些材料替代了,那么这就是作为一个整体你要冒的风险,我对集体是很恐惧的,因为我曾经当过兵,跟60多个人在一起住过好几年,我觉得它给我带来的遗产有两个,一个就是痛恨一致,我认为所有的东西,无论是内在的还是形式上的一致,对我来讲好像心里上都有一种天生的免疫,我基本上觉得这个肯定就是有问题的,第二个就是对集体保持一种怀疑

Q:那你觉得艺术家应该投入注意力的是什么?

A:每个艺术家是不一样的。我觉得对我来讲我感兴趣的,实际上简单的说就是可能性,像我刚才说的我对现存秩序质疑,而且我觉得如果质疑秩序的话,它包括任何秩序政府秩序社会秩序知识秩序,还有就是规则,如果你是这种态度的话,其实我们通常说的艺术到底在什么地方就已经变得不重要了,重要的是你以什么样的方式展示质疑秩序的这种方法。比如说,意识形态商业明确可以最简单方式理解社会,这些东西已经潜在于我们内部的一种对这个世界的认知,就是唯一世界观,对我来讲,我认为这叫新意识形态主义,就是商业标准和政治标准天衣无缝的合作,垄断一切,那么我觉得当代艺术对一个不确定性判断的思维方式,在这样的语言环境里几乎是无法生存的,而且我觉得最要命的是——你知道一个民族要最大地进步……最大的就是你对可能性有要求,可能性只能建立在不确定的领域,这个世界什么东西你都可以把握住了……它对你没有任何可能性的时候,你觉得你还拥有创造吗?

Q:在这些展览中,你在意你的作品与观众的沟通吗?

A:其实……这里边涉及到很多问题,第一个问题就是刚才谈的大众到底存不存在?我们老是谈艺术跟大众,首先就是大众存不存在?就像我们两个这样对着说,你是大众还是我是大众?如果你是我不是,那为什么?换一句话来讲,我是你不是,依据又是什么?如果我们都找不到明确的依据的话,那我们俩都是大众,这样就不存在以一个……艺术家跟大众永远在形成一种独特的关系,这是问题的第一个,所以说这个问题本身一上来就是个很概念问题;第二个就是,如果真的存在艺术家大众关系的话,那么大众实际上不是跟艺术家直接沟通的,大众跟艺术家……如果我们要谈关系,那就是有构成关系的构成系统,第一个系统,教育系统,我们的教育系统不承担任何对当代艺术的教育……,第二,我们所有的美术馆中国严格意义上来讲我看不到一个真正意义上的美术馆,基本上是以出租场地来谋生的这么一个空间,这样的空间也不承担大众任何艺术的教育义务,那么我们的媒体永远对艺术的经验就只能把它当成一个舆论来阐释,你想想,最主要的大众跟艺术家的关系是在这样的一种环境下产生的,公众跟艺术家有关系,其实是由这三个不同的系统所产生的,如果这三个系统都不能建立起来,那么你可以想象,艺术跟大众之间到底存在什么关系?第三,我觉得艺术家跟大众之间不存在一个很固定关系

Q:你对所处的生存环境有什么看法吗?

A:举个例子吧,就像我们现在对城市看法,我觉得艺术家知识分子,包括建筑师都在谈,但是你感觉到更荒诞的是……不是批评城市,而是批评城市变得完全一致,有的时候你在批评这个城市的时候变得特一致,特没有个性,特没有差异,但是我觉得更有趣的是,批评使用的语言方法变得更一致,我开了很多关于对城市的这种讨论会,基本上就是批评会,而且我突然注意到这里边有两个问题,第一,批评城市是很安全的,无论从任何角度,把它骂得体无完肤,或者说把它说成狗屎都可以,因为非常安全,因为不涉及到任何,也不涉及到任何具体,所以说还能表明自己有批评态度,我觉得这是一种投机取巧方法,所以在这种状态下我拒绝以这样的方式来批评,因为这样的话就变成一种集体主义,表态运动,你不批评城市你就不带……我现在就认为有第二个问题出现,批评城市……为什么?英语的那个词WHY?你站在什么样的立场?我希望你用你的方式来说话,而不是说以一个公共方式来说话,尽管你批评的是一个公共的空间,实际上就回到我个人……比如说这样的态度的话,我认为你可以拥有你自己对这个城市的判断,其实城市对我来讲就是一个人造景观,就是我们的另一种乌托邦精神所产生出来的,这个东西……理想主义法西斯主义就在这条线上,就在这条钢丝上,其实我们的整个城市就是建立在这么一个钢丝上,它的乌托邦精神和它的法西斯主义倾向实际上有的时候就是这么一点点距离,在这个问题上,你对城市之间……你的态度是什么,我觉得这个时候你会用你的……比如说你是艺术家,或者你是作家,你会有你的语言方式来谈你的态度,而且我觉得不仅仅表明一个态度,因为我现在也听到很多……就是态度决定一切”,这其实很有问题态度决定一切就意味着所有的问题只要你举手或者不举手,那就是说回到一个公共……其实我在1996年做那个作品《生产》的时候就在调查这个问题,我为什么去了很多现场,去了公共空间?他们为什么要在这个地方成天坐着倾听别人谈自己?实际上就是在分享一个日常话语,就是说某一种个人在这样的一种声音里面已经变得非常不重要了,或者他认为不安全,那么通过这种集体主义的这种场所集体的一种话语方式,潜在的就把某种个人的东西转换成一种倾向公共声音,这样的话,大家都分享一种公共话语安全生存方式也一样,我觉得生存首先是不概念生存,就是你按照……你不用受到某一种潜在的诱惑,或者受到某种潜在的理论的挑衅,你把你的生活放在某一种暗示上,这种暗示就表明你是某一种文化态度,我觉得这个在北京还是比较明显的,就有的时候会具体地分配到穿衣、抽哪种烟、戴哪种眼镜,都有一种文化身份在里边,我觉得文化身份也是致命的,有的时候你的态度止于文化身份上,当你只满足于你代表了某一种文化身份的时候,其实你也就停止你再往下思考的一个机会,就是你表明了你……我感觉这就是我的生存方式

Q:外界对在中国发生的艺术的概括,这种情况是不是真的与整个中国的状况有关?而且是不是现在很多艺术家很相似确实是有其内在的原因而不止是外界的原因呢?

A:其实我觉得这个问题……对我来讲……就像刚才你要让我谈对目前这个东西的判断和这个判断基于什么,比如说有的时候我们说一天就是很长的时间,那就要看具体的一个事情,比如说刷一次牙、吃一顿饭,可能一个小时,这个时间事件之间就是这么一个关系,但是当一个文化的东西被判断或者被准确的判断,我觉得这个时间非常漫长,其实就像我们97年那个展览……到现在,就像你刚才谈的,实际上这种对中国当代艺术的整体判断,它实际上还有愈演愈烈的感觉,我觉得这个过程实际上十年可能还太,也许它还会延续,因为中国和这个世界的关系,这种发展……其实我觉得文化还是属于非常非常缓慢的,其实这个国家你可以看见……有的时候我们会在大街上看到特别时髦的汽车和特别时髦的手机,但是我们很多文化制度包括规定,实际上延续到20多年前……没有任何变化,比如我举个简单的例子,电影,电影的审批制度到现在完全一样,而且可能还比以前……所以说这个社会有一大批东西……实际上……没有变化的东西没有展现出来,所以说有的时候我们看见的是变化的东西……那么从这个意义上来讲,这个社会上实际上都让某一种东西回到了稍稍没有那么太大差异的基础上,它需要很长的时间,反过来,我觉得中国当代艺术也是这个问题,而且我不知道你有没有这个感觉,当时我们在……荷兰做完这个展览以,我记得特别清楚,我们当时觉得好像这样的大展可能将来就不会再发生了,但是没想到十年还有比这个更吓人的展览,那么我觉得可能有两个因素,一个因素就是有更多国家和更多的机构或者说更多的有人,开始对中国兴趣,也许我们那个时候,就是部分地……比如说某一种艺术类型、某一种基金会,开始对中国整体当代艺术感兴趣,现在可能由于中国的这种神话,导致了更多的人和机构从更多的角度关注中国,这可能是另外一种变化,……。第二,我就觉得,由于更多的人进入到这个领域,更多的艺术家会……他会和它产生一种关系,我觉得这个过程是我们必须走的,但是我也注意到,有很多艺术家实际上已经在开始做他们的工作,我觉得这部分艺术家可能比十年前也更多

 

Interviewed: Wang Guanzheng

Time: Noon, Feb. 3, 2007

Location: Grass Green 2607, SOHO Modern City, Beijing

整体 totality total picture overall 12

集体(主义) collectives collectivity 11

一致 homogeneity homogenous 7

时间 time period period of time 15

社会 society social societal 26

个人 individual individualistic 30

经验 experience 13

公共 public 11

大众 public (populace)   15

倾向() tendency inclination 7

语言 language 9

怀疑 doubt suspicion 5

质疑 suspicion question questioning 10

方法 method way  17

方式 manner way 43

(有)问题 problem questionable issue 54

() change become modification 8

状态 status 8

秩序 order 8

判断 judgment judges 20

创造() creative creativity 4

知识(分子) knowledge intellectuals 11

明确() clarify clarity clear 20

针对 focus 9

角度 angles 5

态度 attitude stance 9

身份 identity 22

后身份 post-identity 9

可能性 possibilities 14

话语 discourse 5

权力 power 5

实验 experiment 6

国家 nation 6

概念 concept

 

 

独立 independent 1

意识形态 ideology ideologism 11

安全 safe unsafe safety 4

审批制度 censorship system 1

 

 

 

 

市场 market 8

传统 traditional 5

中国 China 31

money wealthy 2

机会 opportunity 8

诱惑 temptation 1

post 33

关系 relationship 39

生存谋生 survive living 4

商业的 commercial 2

 

 

 

 

Q: Could you please first talk about your view on the current state of contemporary art in China?

 

A: On a macro level, I think we are now in the middle of a process of development. And this is a process of undergoing a transition from seeing the total picture to getting to know individual artists and individual arts, a stage from which I feel we are still very far away. There are pros and cons when a country‘s contemporary art scene appears as a group. The good part is that it attracts more audience and more attention, and the negative part is that it can only appear as a totality. And that, to me, is a problem, which also points to the difference between traditional art and contemporary art. Think about it – over a decade ago, the image that Europe had about Chinese art was an overall impression. If we were to continue our insistence on this totality, it could end up replacing materials or images of one kind with those of another kind– for example, dragon, phoenix, bamboo, porcelain, silk were used in a certain period, which were, eventually, replaced by some other materials. This is the risk you have to take when you present yourself as a totality. I myself am frightened by collectives, because I used to serve in the military, and I lived together with over 60 persons for many years. I’m left with two aftereffects from that experience. The first one is my hatred for homogeneity. I think I’m naturally immune to all things homogenous, either internally or externally. Basically I think a positive view on homogeneity is itself questionable. The second one is my suspicion for collectives.

 

Q: What then should an artist focus on, in your opinion?

 

A: That would be different to each artist. For myself, what I’m interested in is, simply speaking, possibilities. Like I just said, my suspicion for the existing order, and if I question order, which includes any form of order: governmental order, societal order, knowledge order and rules, if you [think this way] take this attitude, then what we often discuss, insofar as   where art is now, is no longer important. What’s important is [how] the way you display your method of questioning such orders.

 

For instance, through the clarity of commercialization and ideology (we) can understand the society in the simplest way. These have become our internalized way of recognizing the world, i.e., the only Weltanschauung. For me, I call this “New Ideologism,” which is a perfect collusion between commercial standards and political standards. It has a monopoly on everything. In that case, I think the way that contemporary art judges the uncertainties, can hardly survive in such a language context. And what is most fatal, I believe, is that when an ethnic group wants maximum progress… The maximum lies in your demands for possibilities. And possibility can exist only in uncertain domains. When everything in this world is within your grasp, when it offers you no possibilities, do you think you still have creativity?

 

Q: In these exhibitions, do you care about the communication between your work and the audience?

 

A: As a matter of fact… this involves a lot of questions. The first one is what we discussed earlier: whether the public exists or not. We always talk about art and the public. But first of all, does the public exist? Take our talking for example, are you the public or am I the public? If you are and I’m not, then why? On the other hand, if I am and you’re not, then what is that based upon? If neither of us can find a clear basis, then we both are the public. Then it does not exist a kind of…The artist and the public are always form a special relationship. This is the first question, which in itself is very conceptual.

 

The second question is, if there really exists a relationship between the artist and the public, then in fact the public is not communicating directly with the artist. The public and the artist…If we are to discuss relationship, then we need to talk about the system that underlies the relationship. The first system is the education system. Yet our educational system does not support any education on contemporary art… And secondly, in China, strictly speaking, we do not have any art museums – all our museums are organizations that rent spaces in order to survive. And such spaces do not bear any responsibility to educate the public. Consequently, our media always interpret the art experiences as a kind of public voice. Now think about it, the principal relationship between the public and the artist is formed under such circumstances. As a matter of fact, the relationship is produced by these three different systems. If the systems cannot be established, then you can imagine what the relationship will be look like. The third question is that I don’t think there exist a stable relationship between artists and the public.

 

Q: Do you have any views on your living conditions?

 

A: Take our views on cities for example. Artists, intellectuals, and even architects, all talk about cities, but what makes it absurd is not the criticism on cities, but the way of criticizing cities that has become completely homogenous. Sometimes criticism on this city becomes very homogenous, without any characteristics and distinctions. What’s more interesting is, the language and method of criticism have become more homogenous. I’ve attended many symposia on cities, which are essentially “criticizing galas”. And suddenly I noticed two things here: first, it’s very safe to criticize the city, from whatever angles. You can criticize it fiercely or call it bullshit. Because it’s very safe, because it does not involve any people, nor anything concrete things, and at the same time it declares your critical stance. This, to me, is opportunistic way. So, in such contexts, I always refuse to criticize in this manner, because it turns into a collectivity, a way of proving your stance – if you don’t criticize, you’re not… So, now I think another question arises. To criticize cities, but why? The English word “Why?” What is your stance? I hope to see you speak in your own manner, instead of in a public manner, even though what you criticize is a public space. With such an attitude, I think you can have your own judgment on this city. As a matter of fact, to me, cities are man-made landscapes, a product of our Utopian spirit. Idealism and Fascism are on this line, this steel wire; in fact, our entire city is built on this steel fire, its Utopian spirit and Fascist inclination just have a little distance. On this issue, what exactly is your attitude? Whether you’re an artist, a writer, you would use your own language and your own way to present your attitude. And it’s not just a declaration of attitude, because I’ve been hearing a lot – about this “attitude decides everything” thing, which is actually full of problems itself. Because “attitude decides everything” means it all depends on whether you raise your hand or not on every issue. That means going back to a public… In fact, when I worked on “Production” in 1996, I did an investigation on this issue. Why did I go to a lot of sites and public spaces? Why did they sit there all day and listen to the others talking about themselves? They are in fact sharing a daily discourse. In other words, certain individuals have become unimportant in such voices, or that they think it unsafe, so that through this collective site and collective discourse, certain individualistic things are transformed into a public voice with some [attitude] tendency. Thus, everyone shares this safety of public discourse. It’s the same with different ways of living. I think, first of all, living is not a kind of conceptual living; you don’t have to be lured by some hidden temptation, or challenged by some hidden theory. You put your life on a certain hint, and this hint reveals your cultural attitude of some sort. I think this is quite obvious in Beijing, and this is realized concretely in dressing, cigarettes you smoke, eyeglasses you wear – they are all injected with some kind of cultural identity. And I think cultural identity is also lethal: sometimes your attitude is determined by your cultural identity; when you become satisfied with your representing certain cultural identity, you actually stop thinking any further… This is how I feel I am living.

 

Q: Does the generalization of the Chinese art scene by those outside China have something to do with the situation in China now? And, apart from the external forces, does the strong similarity among artists actually have its internal reasons?

 

A: Well, actually I think, to me at least, this question… Like just now you wanted me to talk about my judgment on this thing at the present moment and what the basis of my judgment is. For example, sometimes we say a day is a long period of time, but that depends on specific events, such as brushing one’s teeth once, having a meal, which might take an hour. That is the relationship between time and events. But when something cultural is judged, or judged precisely, I think the time involved here is very long. Actually it’s like our show in 1997… all the way up to now. As you just said, this overall judgment on contemporary art in China, it’s still going on strong. I feel that this process takes more than ten years to finish; it might continue, because of the relationship between China and the world, such development…  So actually culture development is very very slow, especially in this country, where you see sometimes on the streets very fashionable cars and very fashionable cellphones, but many of our cultural institutions and regulations in fact date back to more than 20 years ago, without any modification in between. I’ll give you a simple example – films. Our censorship system on film has stayed virtually the same, and perhaps even more… Therefore, there is a large amount of things this society.. in fact, what have not changed do not show up, so what we do see are those that have changed. Then, seen from this angle, this society has in fact let certain things return to a basis where there are no such huge differences, which takes a very long time (to change). On the other hand, I think contemporary Chinese art is facing this same problem. And I don’t know if you’ve noticed, when we were in the Netherlands, after the exhibition, I remember clearly, we felt shows of such large scale wouldn’t be happening ever again. Then, ten years later, to our great surprise, there are shows even more shocking than that one. There might be two factors at work here: the first one is that more countries, or more organizations, or more wealthy people have become interested in China, maybe then, partially… for instance, a certain genre of art, a certain foundation, started to get interested in the overall contemporary Chinese art. Now, due to the myth of China, more people and organizations have focused on China from various different angles. This might be another kind of change. Second, as more people get involved in this field, more artists would… they would make a relationship with it. This is a process that we must undergo; and I have noticed at the same time, that many artists have already started their work, who I think outnumber those of ten years ago.

 

采访对象:孙晋、彭尧/Interviewed: Sun Jin, Peng Yao

采访对象:孙晋、彭尧

采访时间:2007129日中午

采访地点:于北京798孙彭工作室

 

社会 society social socially 24

反应 reaction (feedback response respond) 8

(不)接受 accept acceptance (take in rejected) 7

普通(人,观众) ordinary (people / audience) general public 9

公众 general public 2

观众 audience(s) 22

关系 relation relationship has something to do with 11

机制 system mechanism 8

机构 organization 5

美术馆 museum 8

 

独立 independence 2

政府 government 5

政治 political 3

自由 free 3

 

和谐社会 harmonious society 9

do make 40

do engage in tackle 1

中国 China Chinese 31

西方 the West western 19

发展 development drifting 5

成功 success successful 10

商业()  commercialization commercial commercially 4

游戏 game 4

舒服 comfortable 3

学术 academic academics academically 11

农民 farmer 5

强奸 rape raped 2

通奸 adultery 2

生效 effectiveness effective 2

市场 market marketing 5

投机份子 opportunitists 1

 

 

Q:你们刚才说到你们的创作在公众的反映,也说到外界的自然的影响,我觉得你们早期的作品中与社会相关的比较少,而现在的作品就比较强调社会影响方面的。

A:(孙)其实所有的材料来自社会,只是有些是来自于社会比较不公开层面,有些是比较知名的东西,比如新闻题材,社会题材,其实所有的题材都是社会题材,只不过是被关注程度不同的问题,另外,我觉得我同意现在所有题材都是来自于社会,可能更多的还是来自于我们自身,但是就是说它在跟社会对应的时候,你需要一个合适的转译转换,这时候你在选择材料的时候就会选择一些相对典型性的,就是说这个问题你好像不能分割着来看。

(彭)早期,更年轻的时候,跟社会之间的关系没有那么复杂,或者没有很融入社会中去,所以你的作品和选择材料就不是那么地社会,但我觉得什么都可以作为材料,你越成长的时候,跟社会发生的关系越来越,你自然就会选择社会中你有兴趣材料,所以我认为题材决定的。

Q:在很多展览中看到你们的作品,都是很强调和社会的关系,你们觉得在中国和在西方,观众对艺术的接受和反馈是有区别的吗?

A:(孙)是不一样的,但是我觉得这个不一样更典型的是体现在前些年,就是2000以前和左右的时候,那个时候中国开放时间还不长大部分人当代艺术这个东西持接受的态度,看的时候过于的心急,而现在好像就是越来越趋同西方的和中国观众现在知道有一种(中国当代艺术,知道有一帮人做奇怪,他在看这个东西的时候首先反应就是:行为艺术!这个东西就变成一个词儿了,他对一个东西不理解的时候,他就行为艺术了,他心里头有一个,他可以把它归类,他就接受了。

(彭)以前西方的更加关注的,认为的东西是跟政治对抗的东西,那就是跟整个中国意识形态关系,因为那个时候还不够开放,上海还没有开始做双年展……,所有的西方观众都会从政治角度去看你的作品中国观众两部分,我觉得这两个部分是特别有意思的,这两部分,一部分是懂艺术的人,或者就是跟艺术,跟文化有关的,一部分是跟文化没有关系的人,跟文化有关的这部分人恰恰不能接受这样的作品,而且提出很多抗议或者指责,而跟艺术文化没关系的人,包括警察……我的展览有一次被封过,我跟很多警察片警居委会这些普通人过天,他们都来展览,都觉得太有意思了,

而现在政府也在搞双年展,当代艺术变成了一张,变成大家都可以利用的和值得利用的东西了,所以像一个口号,一个面孔,出现在国际上面孔,这个时候一场与官方游戏开始了

A:(彭)在九几年2000以前,有的时候发生一件事情,你可以静下心来观察周围的事情,细心地去体会每个人变化,而现在,尤其是这些年,整个的艺术气氛都是特别浮躁的,我都心情体会外界的一些变化,而且现在情况比较复杂,……就像我们生活798这个院子里,这完全就是一个旅游区,你很难定位,但我们确实还在这儿工作,现在政府也在做当代艺术了,有很多投机份子做这个事情画廊疯狂加入,每这个院子都有可能出现十几家画廊,然后整个中国当代艺术价格国际市场膨胀,我觉得很多艺术家他们都找不到自己了,所以不像那个时候的情况那么单纯了,地下就地下,就搞艺术,现在真是在和所有的人合作,你在越来越多地跟他们玩这个游戏游戏越来越复杂了,进入第二关!

Q:那么一般的观众是不是比以前更能够接受当代艺术了?

A:(彭)我觉得现在是他们可能容易接受了,但是相反的给他们带来的东西却是少了,以前他们会去体会这些人为什么要这样,现在他们有了一个概念,就像给了你一个,叫“行为艺术”,就说“啊,这是行为艺术!”就不用再想了,对于普通观众来说,他们丧失了这种东西,当他们一旦被给予了一个可以安全解释的之后,实际上就丧失了自己去思考过程

(孙)情况还得分两头说,从艺术家方面来说,实际上他也在逐渐摸清观众脾性 90年代的时候,像“泼皮”那种,我觉得如果那个叫早期艺术家的话,感觉就是任我行,因为公众不接受,他就越来越走向极端,但是现在很多艺术家可能都意识到了,就是说你要想任我行的话,你首得让观众觉得你行,所以它的两方面就开始往一个地方走,然后它找到一个协调点了以后,就是双方都能感觉地比较自由比较融洽,就是和谐社会了。那个时候就是改革开放突破,就什么事都现在就是很多事格局已经划分好了,就是看怎么协调了,跟国家形势一样,这个和谐社会艺术来说也是一个比较大的问题,当然任何时代都有问题,但是现在和谐社会问题西方差不多,因为西方都是和谐社会,所以艺术家在里面既自由难受,现在我就看中国什么时候能够达到西方一样,也有这种感觉

(彭)就比如说,有国外比较大的机构要来北京做美术馆,其实刚开始我听他们这样的消息很兴奋,因为终于有很好美术馆中国北京做当代艺术了,但很,几天以后我就意识到一个危机,我不知道这个东西来了以后,对于北京,对于整个的中国当代艺术的状况是一个帮助,是一个推进,是推进它朝不好的方向,还是方向健康的方向还是不健康方向?这都是有两个方面的,就是他们想的是把一个很正统西方美术馆机制拿到北京,在国外做展览的时候,你可以看到整个西方的那种很腐朽美术馆机制给整个艺术带来的没有活力的状况,这就是那年很多中国艺术家去参加威尼斯双年展的时候他们很轰动原因,他们觉得整个中国当代艺术西方有力量的,其实是不是真的有力量?其实我觉得也不是说有没有力量,而是他们发现中国才有可能性,这个可能就是潜力能量,让人可怕的东西,而在西方呢,那种机制让大家觉得就像在孙原所说的和谐社会里,他必须要在缝隙,这样玩来玩去的话,就变成大家都在耍小聪明,我觉得这样人生就太不灿烂了,所以说,这样一个机制中国来,对艺术家的影响,我觉得就是应该从两个方面来去考虑这个问题。你把一个死了的东西拿到来,它是不是丧失了好多可能?就是它让你加速规范化,当然很多西方美术馆批评中国艺术家或者说整个中国市场的时候,就说他们太不规范化了,但这就是中国特色,这是中国魅力所在。我比较喜欢生活出现很多意外,就是你眼看着中国当代艺术向完全知道的,没有任何意外方向发展,我觉得这时候艺术家要用什么样的活力刺激这个东西呢?

Q:经济环境的变化会影响艺术,艺术家与观众之间的关系,但其实有很多艺术家做作品不是做给观众看的,是吧?

A:(孙原)这个问题实际上是知识政府步调一致,就是和谐社会产生实际上是经历了一个和平演变过程的,就是商业化经济参与实际上是促成了这个和谐社会,就是让你在关注自己和关注受众的同时共同参与参考规则经济规则,你不能不承认所有人都会把经济上的成功作为衡量成功标准艺术家自己也会这么观众也是,它是一个参考值,所以这个经济作用在里面了一个协调工作,就逐渐地发生了和平演变,所以我就说这个和谐社会的产生并不是纯粹地由艺术家观众造成的,它肯定是有另外的东西来介入,才能促成,那怎么保持一致?怎么达到一个共同协调点?很多时候都是会把经济因素作为一个参照点的。

(彭)市场学术根本就是两回事,因为市场做市场的学术的有做学术的,所以你要我们搞这方面的人去谈那个也谈不了。

(孙)有时候“学术是学术”,我也不完全认同,在考虑学术的时候你会考虑成功的问题吗?当你考虑这个问题了就存在一个协调点了,所有的因素一起达到一个最佳分配比,它就以一个成功面貌出现了,它也会让你的学术一些动力,得到一些可应证的东西,这个成功不仅指商业上层面的,而是指各个层面上的成功,如果没有这个成功做参照的话,学术无所谓方向,无所谓价值,就是它没有统一平台学术实际上都有一个平台,它存在一个成功标准,就是生效商业上的和学术上生效,实际上都是产生一种价值的。

Q:你们在意那些对你们作品的反馈意见中的非议的东西吗?

A:(孙)其实我在意的就是观众反应

(彭)但是他们反应成什么样不重要,他一定反应就行了。我们不注重他们的反应赞扬批评,只注重他们反应

(孙)或者说这种东西最好混杂的,就是说既有强奸又有通奸嘛,如果说强奸它又有高潮了,而通奸却又带有被动性,就是它是很混杂的比较好,我不太赞成纯粹强迫的东西,但是一定要有反应

Q:我觉得在北京、上海和在广州很大不同的一点就是对权力意识的不同,在北京是最强的,在上海薄了一点,而在广州则更弱,你们对这点有什么看法吗?

A:(孙)我对你说的这个权力问题感觉不是特,我不知道有没有权力,但是我对这个问题的看法就是说不管有没有权力,你感觉很舒服愉快了,因为你处在别人权力机制,你不是处在最高层上,你在这很愉快,你在这儿,那我觉得就可以了,它相对来说跟农民企业的感觉还不一样农民企业它是权力第一,甚至就连吃饭都是权力一部分,那就是如果拿不到这个权力的话就没有生存余地了。……我说的权力也是指的那种支配被支配关系,而不是那种权势的东西。

 

Interviewed: Sun Jin, Peng Yao

Time: Noon, January 29, 2007

Location: Sun & Peng Studio, 798, Beijing

 

 

社会 society social socially 24

反应 reaction (feedback response respond) 8

(不)接受 accept acceptance (take in rejected) 7

普通(人,观众) ordinary (people / audience) general public 9

公众 general public 2

观众 audience(s) 22

关系 relation relationship has something to do with 11

机制 system mechanism 8

机构 organization 5

美术馆 museum 8

 

独立 independence 2

政府 government 5

政治 political 3

自由 free 3

 

和谐社会 harmonious society 9

do make 40

do engage in tackle 1

中国 China Chinese 31

西方 the West western 19

发展 development drifting 5

成功 success successful 10

商业()  commercialization commercial commercially 4

游戏 game 4

舒服 comfortable 3

学术 academic academics academically 11

农民 farmer 5

强奸 rape raped 2

通奸 adultery 2

生效 effectiveness effective 2

市场 market marketing 5

投机份子 opportunitists 1

 

 

Source of Keywords:

 

 

Q: You just mentioned the public perception of your works and the natural influence thereof, I have the feeling that most of your early works are not as socially-conscious as the newer ones.

A: (Sun) Actually all the materials come from the society, it’s just that some of them come from the relatively private aspect of social life, and some are better-known materials, such as news subjects, social topics. Actually all topics are social topics, it’s just that the attention they draw are of different levels. Also, I don’t think I would go with the idea that currently all subjects derive from the society, I think a lot of them can still find roots in ourselves, but when they are confronted with the society, you’ll need an appropriate translation and conversion system, and then you’ll end up choosing relatively typical materials. It seems to me that you just can’t take the problem separately.

(Peng) In the early days when we were young, our relation with the society are not so complicated, or, shall we say, we were not yet an integrated part of the society, therefore the works we did and the materials we used are not so socially-conscious. But I reckon that anything could be used as material, and you are going to engage in the society more and more as you grow up, eventually you’ll choose those materials in the society that interest you. So I don’t think that subject is the key issue here.

Q: A lot of your works in the exhibitions are focused on the relationship with the society. Do you perceive any differences in China and the West in terms of audience’s acceptance and feedback?

A: (Sun) Yes, but I think the differences were more typical a few years ago, before and around 2000. The opening-up of China was still in its early phase back then, and most people did not accept what is called contemporary art, they were too impatient when watching. Now there seems to be a unified consensus, western and Chinese audience are aware of this (Chinese) contemporary art thing, they know there is a bunch of people doing weird stuff, and their first reaction towards them are “Ah! Another performance art! “Thus art is reduced to a term, when someone puzzles over something; he would call it performance art. He has this category in his mind, and can group it, and then it’s easy for him to take in.

(Peng) At that time the West was more interested in the political confrontational aspect, it has something to do with the whole Chinese ideology. The country was not open enough back then, and biennale still didn’t emerge in Shanghai……all the western audiences would interpret your work from the political perspective. There were two kinds of Chinese audience, and this is particularly interesting, the first kind is artistically-informed people, or people somewhat related to art and culture; and the other kind is people who has no relationship whatsoever with culture. As it turned out, the culture-savvy part happened to find our works incomprehensible, they even made a lot of protests or accusation against them. On the other hand, those who have no relationship with art or culture, including policemen……one of my exhibitions was banned, and I chatted with many ordinary people like policemen and persons in Residents’ Committee, you know, ordinary people, they all went to see the exhibition and found it super interesting.

And now governments are organizing biennales, contemporary art has become a card in their hands, something that everyone can and should take advantage of. So it’s like a slogan, a presentation used to impress the international community, and here’s when the game with the official starts.

A: (Peng) In the ’90s, before 2000, when something happens, you can calm down to observe your surroundings, to perceive the changes of everybody in detail. But now, especially in recent years, the whole atmosphere in the art scene is volatile. It has become difficult for me to try to understand the changes outside, and the situation is complicated now……take our studio in 798 for example, this place is so touristy now, it’s hard to position yourself. But we do work here as of today. Now the government is into contemporary art too, a lot of opportunitists are into this, and there’s the gallery frenzy, a dozen of new galleries would turn up here every day. You also witness the price of Chinese contemporary art skyrocketing on the international market, I have the feeling that many artists have lost themselves, they have become less pure; in the old days, underground is underground, the artists make art, and that’s it. Nowadays everyone collaborates with everyone, and you participate in their game more frequently, the game is getting more and more complex, Stage Two!

Q: So do you think that general public has become better connoisseurs of contemporary art?

A: (Peng) I think maybe they do find it easier to accept, but what art offers them, on the contrary, has decreased. Back then they would try to understand why these people do what they’re doing, now they get themselves a concept, like I tell you this word, ‘performance art‘, they go ‘Ah, so this is performance art!’, and there it is. Something is missing for the general public, the minute they are given a safe explanation, they are deprived of the thinking process.

(Sun) There are actually two sides of the coin. For the artist, I think they are also trying to figure out what kind of audience they have. In the ’90s there was this cynic group, you may want to call them early [Chinese] contemporary artist, they were the enfant terrible, going to the extreme when rejected by the public. By now, however, many artists have come to realize that in order to play the enfant terrible card you need to first have the endorsement by the audience. So both sides were moving towards each other, when the two reach a point of coordination, by which I mean they can work together seamlessly and feel free at the same time, that’s what you may call the harmonious society. Back then reform and opening were everything, people would do anything for breakthrough. Things have changed, now the overall structure is fixed, it’s a matter of coordination. This is in synch with the general situation of the country, the concept of harmonious society has posed a big question to art as well. Of course every era has its own issues, but the issues we are facing now in a harmonious society is of not much difference with those in the western countries. This is because harmonious society is commonplace in the West, and artists there feel free and suffocated at the same time. This is gonna happen in China at some point in the future, we’ll see.

(Peng) For instance, I’m initially exciting upon learning that certain large foreign organization is coming to Beijing to open a museum, because it means there will finally be a decent museum showcasing contemporary art in Beijing and in China. But soon I come to realize the potential crisis; I don’t know whether this thing would do any good to Beijing and to Chinese contemporary art as a whole, will it help pushing the scene towards the good or bad, healthy or unhealthy direction? There are two sides to these things. What the foreign museums try to do is to port the whole prestigious western museum system to Beijing, but if you take a look at exhibitions in the West, you’ll see how the corrupted museum system stifles the whole art scene. This explains all the buzz about the whole lot of Chinese artists participating in the Venice Biennale that year; they witnessed the potential of Chinese contemporary art in the West. But is there really any potential? Granted, you can’t say there’s zero potential, but the point is westerners realized that they could find new possibilities in China, and these possibilities are potential, energy, frightening stuff. While in the West, the whole system has provided a, in Sun Yuan’s word, harmonious society for everybody, people have to play by the rules and to strive for breakthrough in between. After some time, everybody ends up playing tricks, for me this is really not the ideal way of life. So I think the western museum system‘s coming into China will be a double-edged sword for the artists. Wouldn’t you kill a lot of possibilities if you bring in something lifeless? It helps us to operate under the rules and procedure, that’s for sure, and of course an oft-heard criticism on Chinese artists or the whole Chinese art market by western museums is the lack of rules and procedure, but this is precisely the characteristic and charisma of China. I prefer a lifestyle with lots of accidents, if Chinese contemporary art is drifting towards a completely expected, accident-free direction, I think it’s time for the artists to think about what they can do to stimulate the scene.

Q: Economic changes will have an influence on art and the relation between artists and the audience, but there are a lot of artists seem to ignore the audience, aren’t there?

A: (Sun) This is about knowledge being in synch with the government, in other words, a harmonious society is the end result of a peaceful evolution process. Commercialization and the participation of economics contribute to the realization of a harmonious society. There are rules, economic rules, that you would want to follow and to refer to as a kind of artist who cares not only about yourself, but also about the audience. One can’t deny the fact that all people regard economical success as the measurement of success in general, even artists themselves, so do the audiences. It’s a point of reference. So economics actually works as the coordinator and thus triggers the peaceful evolution. I’ll say that artists and audiences are not the sole driving force of the harmonious society, there must be some other interfering factors. So how to maintain consistency? How to reach the same coordinated point? Economics is being used as a reference point in many cases.

(Peng) Market and academic studies call for different approaches. Marketing guys take care of the market, scholars take care of academic studies, so it won’t do any good to have people like us to talk about issues without our range.

(Sun) Sometimes people say ‘academic is itself’, I’m not sure I agree with them on that: do you think about the question of success when doing academic works? If the question crosses your mind, then there shall be a point of coordination somewhere. When all the factors are mixed together in the optimized proportion, it will appear to be something successful and will generate some momentum for your academic studies. Here, the word successful means not only commercial success, but success in every dimension. Without this all-dimentional success as the point of reference, academic studies will be of no direction or value – it has no coordinated platform. Actually academics all work on a platform, there is the standard for measuring success, which is effectiveness, [commercial-wise and academic-wise] effective commercially or academically. There’s a certain value in it.

Q: Do you care about the negative part in the audiences’ feedback?

A: (Sun) The audiencesfeedback are exactly the thing I care about.

(Peng) But it’s not important how they respond to our works, as long as there is response at all. We don’t really care whether they are positive or negative, we care about the fact that they do have reaction.

(Sun) Or shall we say the best case is that we have mixed response; rape mixed with adultery, if you will. Being raped and yet reaching orgasm, committing adultery but with a bit of passiveness, that’s a good mixture. I’m not into pure compulsory stuff, but reaction is a must.

Q: I think one of the major differences between Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou is the different level of consciousness towards power. It’s the strongest in Beijing, weaker in Shanghai, and the weakest in Guangzhou. Do you have anything to say about this?

A: (Sun) I don’t particularly feel that way, this power thing you mentioned. I don’t know if there’s power or not, but the way I see it, power is of no relevance as long as you feel comfortable and happy. Because you are in the lower tiers of others’ power mechanism, you are not the top guy, you feel good being here, and you stay here, I think that’s enough. It’s not necessarily the same thing as the farmer‘s corporation, in which power is above everything, even daily meals are related to power, if you can’t get hold of this power, you are not able to survive……by power I mean a kind of dominate/subordinate relation, not necessarily political power.

 

采访对象:卢思沉/Interviewed: Lu Sichen

采访对象:卢思沉

采访时间:2007130日下午

采访地点:于北京四环辅路梵思西餐厅

社会 social 18

市场 market 11

机构 institutions organizations 11

边缘 periphery 7

居住 housing living 5

北京 Beijing 63

邻居 neighbors 5

符号 symbol 10

中国符号 China symbol 6

胡同 Hutong alleys 10

 

国家 country 5

弱势群体 under-privileged groups 7

日本 Japan 6

 

热门 hot 3

老百姓 citizens residents 5

环境 context 13

拍卖 auction 8

价格 price, worth 5

价值 value 8

关系 relationship 21

人际关系 interpersonal relationship 2

拆迁 demolishing and rebuilding 3

西方 the West 4

建筑 building 9

位置 status 4

装修 decoration project interior decoration 3

circle 1

 

Q:先请卢老师谈一下你对现在中国当代艺术发展状况的一些看法。

A:这问题挺大的。我觉得现在中国当代艺术发展正处在一个比较好时期,很热门,很多机构收藏家都非常关注当代艺术。从这一点来讲,它是一个比较事情。但是就这两年来看,作品反而出得,不多,有人就觉得现在是中国当代艺术最低潮的时候,

这要做到也挺难的,因为我觉得,对于很多艺术家来说,他们需要卖画社会诱惑力太了。以前大家还关注怎么去制作一件好作品,关注学术